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Blackguards and Wisdom

So the minimum wisdom for a blackguard is 3 unlike for a regular paladin which must have 13.

Is there any disadvantage to having 3 wisdom? As far as I know no paladin or ranger kits gain bonus spells from wisdom as that is a strict benefit for clerics and Druids.

Also there is no spell casting failure like in pnp.

JuliusBorisov

Comments

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    (I posted this in IWD on the off chance that it's different in IWD and escaped my notice).

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Nope, even in IWD wisdom only adds lore for Paladins (and Rangers), no bonus spells. There's also no real other function for wisdom, aside from the odd RP check.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    Nope, even in IWD wisdom only adds lore for Paladins (and Rangers), no bonus spells. There's also no real other function for wisdom, aside from the odd RP check.

    That's really weird that a Blackguard can still cast divine spells with 3 wisdom. That's some shoddy implementation right there I think?

    BlackravenjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    Yeah, that's either a glaring oversight or a way to make the kit even more OP. Given that they make the deal with their Patron, I can understand allowing them to have lower Wisdom, but anything below 10 is just silly.

    JuliusBorisov
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    On contrary it is a way to balance the kit by making the rolls worse than the others kits.

    DJKajuruJuliusBorisov
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Gotural said:

    On contrary it is a way to balance the kit by making the rolls worse than the others kits.

    The rolls don't work how you think they do.

    Stormvessel
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,476
    @Wowo What do you mean? The rolls work exactly the wrong way in this game. A higher minimum for wisdom will make rolling high stats more probable, like @Gotural says.

    elminsterDJKajuru
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    edited January 2015
    Minimum rolls are a bit weird. On the one hand you get higher stat totals, on the other hand not being able to "dump" certain stats makes it harder to get the ones you want high enough.

    Example: You want high STR, DEX, CON. You can dump INT, WIS, CHA. That means that you just need any 3 out of 6 rolls to be high (since you can basically distribute at will). Now look at what happens when WIS suddenly has a high minimum value: you still want the same stats, but you can no longer dump WIS. You now need 3 high rolls out of 5 rolls - a lower chance than before. Yes your stat total might end up higher, but the chance of getting the stats you want is lower.

    Of course, this also conversely means that if you WANT one of the minimum roll stats to be high, it is easier to do so (assuming you still have some dump stats left).

    In practice all this isn't a huge deal, though. In PnP there is a lot more going on with minimum stats etc., in BG/IWD it's very easy to get the rolls you want, as you want them.

    FinneousPJTJ_HookerStormvessel
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 589
    I've always thought that blackguards should have the same stat requirements as Paladins. They're essentially "anti-paladins", so why not?

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    How rolls work in the game :

    The game rolls 3d6 for each stats, then the roll of each stat is compared to the minimum.

    If one of the stat doesn't reach the required number, the game rolls everything again.

    Then if every stats reach the required value, the game makes the total, if the sum is inferior to 75, the game rolls everything again.

    Which is another reason why I dislike dual class, because Human have no minimum, which means that you're going to roll a Human Fighter with minimum stats of 9/3/3/3/3/3 and it's very hard to aim for a good 95+ roll and nearly impossible to roll a 100+.

    On contrary this is why rolling a 100+ is fairly easy with a Paladin, because nearly everytime you roll, the game is probably rolling ten times or more because so many rolls are going to get discarded. Let's not forget that while the Blackguard doesn't have a Wisdom requirement, it has a higher Consitution minimum (14 instead of 9).

    At the end of the day it's fairly logical that higher minimum equals higher rolls in average. If we could create a character with minimums of 18/18/18/18/18/17, you could only create a character with a total roll of 107 or 108. With a probability of 75% of rolling 107, and 25% of rolling 108.

    BlackravenDJKajurureivisionJuliusBorisov
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited January 2015
    Gotural said:

    The game rolls 3d6 for each stats, then the roll of each stat is compared to the minimum. If one of the stat doesn't reach the required number, the game rolls everything again.

    Do we actually know this? Or is it possible that the game simply re-rolls the individual stat?

    And yes, higher minimum stats result in higher average rolls. But simply looking at stat totals/averages is kind of pointless. Having high numbers in particular stats, dependent on class, is what's important. So as @Lord_Tansheron points out, having a high minimum stat is only useful when that stat is helpful to the class (which it often is). But seeing as how wisdom is useless for Paladins, having a low minimum is advantageous as it provides another dump stat.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,476
    @Gotural‌ Indeed, is this something you know? How?

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited January 2015
    It something of an oversight. All divine spells are supposed to suffer a scaling failure penalty (5%) for every point under 13 wisdom (and the complete inability to cast 6th/7th level spells unless they have 17/18 wisdom respectively).

    In the case of rangers/paladins was also supposed to represent their more attuned senses to tell when people are lying or otherwise attempting to deceive, as well as having other value in skills the game doesn't include (paladins had access to priest NCP which tended to require wisdom, where as rangers got bonuses to a couple extra skills that used wisdom). And of course the passive bonus to saves vs mind affecting spells (or penalty for very low wisdom), which the game also leaves out.

    However, Blackguards are NOT paladins (the complete guide of paladins even explicitly states that they are not nor should never be considered the same as simply an evil paladin). They serve a thematically similar function, but that's where the resemblance ends (Blackguards are usually given power directly as a result of a pact with one infernal power or another instead of their faith or strength of will/belief like most other divine casters).

    GoturalKamigoroshijackjackRAM021
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,629
    And people who make pacts with devils usually aren't very wise :P

    Musignyjackjack
  • skinnydragonskinnydragon Member Posts: 110
    I don't know making a pact with a demon where you actually end up with any kind of bonus suggests a high wisdom. The low wisdom candidates will have been conned into selling their souls for a lower metaphysical burden. In other words sold their soul in exchange for not having a soul. The wisest course may be not to deal but the truly foolish won't make it far as blackguards

    jackjack
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Well, as so often you can argue things easily with a bit of RP creativity. I mean, if low WIS was a killer, it'd be reflected more in the game rules; it's not, so we need to come up with something to explain it. Sure it would be LOGICAL that foolish people don't go far, but that's not how the game rules work - and if you want to be consistent, then work within those rules (it's all arbitrary anyway).

    Besides, there are a lot of things not exactly represented within the framework of the game rules. For example, you could be a very foolish Blackguard indeed with your 3 WIS, getting conned by a whole mob of demons out of any soul you'll ever have - but that wouldn't necessarily reflect in your game behavior in any way. You're still a walking death machine, no problem. I mean sure, you'll end up MAJORLY screwed down the road somewhere, but that isn't part of the game, simply because the game depicts a fairly limited window in the character's timeline.

  • skinnydragonskinnydragon Member Posts: 110
    edited January 2015
    I was responding to @scriver‌ 's comment that people making pacts with demons weren't very wise. Sure in the game the lack of wisdom won't mess your character up but I was suggesting that getting the best of the deal, ie becoming that walking death machine takes a bit of wisdom, either that or you'll end up being some Demons puppet/chew toy. In brief I was merely commenting that a high wisdom doesn't prevent you from making the deal and may be helpful in any deals you do make.

    jackjackGotural
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Oh high wisdom is definitely helpful, since one of their (not included) abilities is to summon a lesser infernal being to aid them (requires lvl 10 or higher, and only 1 such being can be contracted at a time, after which 1 week must pass following the end of the contract before they can attempt to use the ability again), which requires a wisdom check to negotiate the terms of service and prices involved. This can be used for an immediate task, such as attacking enemies after which the being departs or a longer term of service could be negoiated, such as acquiring an imp or quasit to act as a familiar-spy or a higher tier demon such as a Horned Devil, Vrock or Succubus to serve as a cohort for an agreed upon period of time.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Succubus "cohort", eh. No wonder Blackguards are so popular.

    TJ_HookerjackjackFinneousPJ
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    To be fair, the most common use is contracting a Nightmare to serve as a mount, since they're tough and can basically fly at will (though they have a weight limit).

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,026
    Must... resist... mount joke...

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Jarrakul said:

    Must... resist... mount joke...

    Lucky you can cast Resist Fire, hey?

    jackjack
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