Classes, Kits, and What Weapons are Worth It?
CaeDares
Member Posts: 182
So I've been really trying to get into BG:EE and it's class kits and all, and I guess I would just like to know which classes fall off later in the game and which ones don't (Assume that the game is being Solo'd).
So let me start off by asking; What ranged-type classes/kits are good?
I know a Sorcerer/Mage can blow through the game after a certain level and the right spells, but when you get put against an enemy with a high magic resistance, the game instantaneously becomes harder than hell. As a spellflinger, you lack the ability to use Melee and Ranged weapons to a good effect and could get blown away yourself in just a few hits, if not less.
As a Ranger, or one of it's kits, Archer for example, you have both Ranged and Melee at your disposal if you wish it. I personally like using EEKeeper to swap the 2 proficiency points you get in 2 Weapon Style to 2-Handed Weapon Style because opening your inventory to swap your bow out and put a sword in is just a hassle. If you don't want to go with 2-Handed, you could always switch it to Single Handed...Whatever you feel like doing. Either way, you have the Versatility. The only thing you don't have is spells and you're unable to loot locked chests and whatnot, leaving you with quite a few items that could help you on your journey and potentially make you weaker.
Then we have the Thief, the Bard, and so on and so forth.
Now onto Melee.
You have a HUGE variety of choices. Fighter and it's kits, Barbarian, Thief, and so on. There's too much to go over.
as a Fighter/Thief or a Kensai/Mage you'll rip through the game no sweat. Fighter is actually, in my opinion, what a lot of basic, first-time players should go with to get a grip on the game before actually trying other classes.
For the choices of being Ranged or Melee, what, of the two, would be the absolute easiest to play / rip through the game with, what would be the funnest (Funnest as in not specifically hard, but a joy to play as), and what would be the hardest (Cough cough Wizard Slayer cough Cough), and why? What makes them hard, fun, or easy?
If I play as a Mage/Sorcerer, what spells should I be going with? Which spells are useful and which ones are bad?
I'm also going to ask what weapons are actually worth it. Sure you could google "BG:EE Best Weapons" and just roll a character with proficiency for Carsomyr or whatever, but what's the fun in that?
Are Halberds any good? Spears? Flails/Morningstarts and Maces? Ninjatos? Darts and Slings? Should shortbows even be considered if you're not a Gnome/Halfling?
The point is that there's a bunch of different weapon types that I think go unused and I'm not sure why. I have yet to see somebody actually WANT to be proficient with a Halberd or a Spear, or even a Bastard Sword or Scimitar.
Keep in mind that I'm not asking what the best end-game class/kit and weapon/armor set would be.
Also, why can't Elves be Druids? D&D history tells me that that isn't right.
So let me start off by asking; What ranged-type classes/kits are good?
I know a Sorcerer/Mage can blow through the game after a certain level and the right spells, but when you get put against an enemy with a high magic resistance, the game instantaneously becomes harder than hell. As a spellflinger, you lack the ability to use Melee and Ranged weapons to a good effect and could get blown away yourself in just a few hits, if not less.
As a Ranger, or one of it's kits, Archer for example, you have both Ranged and Melee at your disposal if you wish it. I personally like using EEKeeper to swap the 2 proficiency points you get in 2 Weapon Style to 2-Handed Weapon Style because opening your inventory to swap your bow out and put a sword in is just a hassle. If you don't want to go with 2-Handed, you could always switch it to Single Handed...Whatever you feel like doing. Either way, you have the Versatility. The only thing you don't have is spells and you're unable to loot locked chests and whatnot, leaving you with quite a few items that could help you on your journey and potentially make you weaker.
Then we have the Thief, the Bard, and so on and so forth.
Now onto Melee.
You have a HUGE variety of choices. Fighter and it's kits, Barbarian, Thief, and so on. There's too much to go over.
as a Fighter/Thief or a Kensai/Mage you'll rip through the game no sweat. Fighter is actually, in my opinion, what a lot of basic, first-time players should go with to get a grip on the game before actually trying other classes.
For the choices of being Ranged or Melee, what, of the two, would be the absolute easiest to play / rip through the game with, what would be the funnest (Funnest as in not specifically hard, but a joy to play as), and what would be the hardest (Cough cough Wizard Slayer cough Cough), and why? What makes them hard, fun, or easy?
If I play as a Mage/Sorcerer, what spells should I be going with? Which spells are useful and which ones are bad?
I'm also going to ask what weapons are actually worth it. Sure you could google "BG:EE Best Weapons" and just roll a character with proficiency for Carsomyr or whatever, but what's the fun in that?
Are Halberds any good? Spears? Flails/Morningstarts and Maces? Ninjatos? Darts and Slings? Should shortbows even be considered if you're not a Gnome/Halfling?
The point is that there's a bunch of different weapon types that I think go unused and I'm not sure why. I have yet to see somebody actually WANT to be proficient with a Halberd or a Spear, or even a Bastard Sword or Scimitar.
Keep in mind that I'm not asking what the best end-game class/kit and weapon/armor set would be.
Also, why can't Elves be Druids? D&D history tells me that that isn't right.
Post edited by CaeDares on
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Comments
Spellcasters are always good, though as you note, they'll have trouble with magic-immune creatures. Not insurmountable trouble by a long shot, but trouble nonetheless. Make special note of defensive spells (like Mirror Image and Stoneskin) and summoned creatures for dealing with magic-immune enemies.
Halberds: Okay in BG1, good in BG2.
Spears: Bad in BG1, good in BG2.
Flails: Okay in BG1, great in BG2.
Maces: Great in BG1, okay in BG2.
Darts: Good as secondary weapons in both games
Slings: Okay in both games
Shortbows: Good in BG1, okay in BG2 (great if you're an Archer)
Longbows: Great in BG1, terrible in BG2 (okay if you're an Archer)
Bastard Swords: Okay in both games
Scimitar: Great in BG1, great in BG2 as off-hands (ninja-to are in the same proficiency, but are themselves largely bad with one very conditional exception)
Elves weren't allowed to be druids (outside of specific kits, I think) until 3rd edition came along and removed race restrictions. I agree that this doesn't make much sense.
Gotta love katanas.
Also, why are shortbows better than Longbows/Composite Bows in BG2? Whats the big advantage?
And as for the Ninja-to, how are they so bad, and what is the exception?
Ninja-tos are just rare, which is probably why they ended up in the same group as Scimitars (they are very different weapons). The most well-known ninja-to is probably Scarlet (+3 enchantment, poison attack, +1 attk per round, only monks/classes with UAI may use), a favorite off-hand of thief-types and bards.
Ninja-to are poor because magical ninja-to are rare. Nuin notes the main exception, which is a really fantastic weapon for high level thieves and bards.
Ranged weapons as a whole are weaker for two main reasons. First, many magical ranged weapons (notably almost all bows) don't add their bonus to damage. Magical ammo is similarly disadvantaged, and also tend to have massively reduced elemental damage where applicable (acid arrows drop from +2d6 to +1d3, for example). Second, belts of giant strength become common, making strength-based weapons substantially more powerful. The few missile weapons that add strength still tend to lose out (sometimes substantially) to melee builds either in terms of number of attacks or base damage.
Anyway, a study of ranged weapons here "http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55890" already shows that the Sling of Seeking is capable of doing the highest damage of any ranged weapon in the game, in the hands of a fighter-type. AND you can use a shield with it.
Going by EE rules would effectively be the same as saying we all should just completely forget about short bows/long bows/crossbows/etc. and start using slings + strength enhancing items on everyone, at least from a powergaming perspective.
I don't believe this should be the case, which is why I maintain that slings are bugged.
As an archer you should be putting your points in both long bows and short bows, at the very least. I find it odd that many of your proficiency points are into melee weapons when as a dedicated archer you should be prepared to switch between different ranged weapon types at a moment's notice. You are the ranged equivalent of a plain fighter, not the ranged equivalent of a sword saint. You'll need backup/alternative ranged weapon proficiencies.
In practice there is real merit in being able to switch between different weapon types considering unique ammo (piercing arrows, acid arrows, stunning bolts, electric bolts, etc), the /availability/ of ammo and unique bow enchantments (Heartseeker gives you +7 THAC0 for a few seconds, for example, excellent against heavily armored foes like dragons). As an archer you should also be switching back and forth between short/long bows up until the last part of SoA, when you finally get Gesen's (that is, if you want to maximize your damage contribution).
It also helps that attacks per round shouldn't be an issue for you once you get Whirlwind/Greater Whirlwind.
I honestly didn't think that I should split my points into both Longbow and Shortbow, or maybe even Crossbow also. I don't normally play characters using Bows/Arrows or Crossbows/Bolts (Never even used Crossbows before, I just don't like them for some reason) when I play any game in the Forgotten Realms series. I just kind of figured that I could just max out my proficiency in Longbow, find the best one I could and do pretty decently with it. When it comes to Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale or whatever, I don't really care much for the power mad type of characters with all the best gear and ect., switching between two handed and two weapon, shortbow and longbow, ect. I like doing the classic roleplay style, sticking to two or three weapons, and being damned good with just those, but I guess that's not the case in BG2EE because the weapon I want to use sucks to an infinite level, apparently.
If that is the case then I think Beamdog needs to do some serious work in fixing the game instead of rushing to create the Enhanced Edition of the the rest of the series. It kind of blows that each game has its "overpowering weapons" and choosing certain other weapons means the game is going to be harder than shit (Like the Ninja-To or daggers) . I understand some people like the challenge, but it ruins the game for people who want to casually play the game.
In your first post you gave us the impression of you being a jaded BG2 palyer and dedicated, hardcore powergamer. We simply responded to this. I'm pretty sure many of us here would have responded very differently if we had known otherwise.
For example, in my next playthrough I wanted to play as a Fighter type class that specialized in Halberds/Spears because I've typically never used them before, so this information is good to me because I now know if they're even decent weapons to use and if they would benefit me in BG2EE as well.
Sometimes I like rolling with a Drizzty Do'Urden type of character, sometimes I like rolling a power hungry evil Dragon Disciple and slaying everybody who walk in front of me,
and sometimes I just like taking my modded character and blowing up every living thing I face.
Good ol' times.
But yeah, sorry if I mislead any of you.
Using a sling to throw something would be different than throwing it with your bare hands, but in either case someone who is stronger is going to throw or sling the projectile harder whether with their bare hands or a sling. A full grown man can throw a baseball much harder than an 8 year old boy, for example.
There is a precendent for certain ranged weapons to benefit from a high strength score. Composite bows in 2e have a high strength requirement and deal more damage. This is to reflect the extra strength needed to draw these bows. In 3e/3.5/Pathfinder you can get composite bows with a bonus equal to your strength modifier. For example a Composite +2 Longbow means you can add your strength bonus (up to +2) on the damage roll. If you use a Composite +2 Longbow with less than 14 strength (+2 str modifier) you take the difference as a penalty to your attack roll because you cannot properly draw the bowstring. Likewise, in 3e/3.5/PF Slings have added the user's strength modifier to the damage. This is to reflect the extra force the wielder can use while spinning and releasing the projectile.
So, if slings shouldn't be the best ranged weapon, making them "bugged," then why is the Gesen bow (the other best ranged weapon) not "bugged?" This line of reasoning would be like saying that if Beamdog made a new Longbow that out performed the shortbow (Gesen Bow) that lonbows would now be "bugged."
For soloing BG2:EE most classes can finish the Soa campaign however the Tob campaign is a different story. The class with the most difficulty defeating the Soa campaign solo would be the thief because the thief is restricted to physical damage with only one attack.
My brother soloed a human assassin through the Soa campaign dual wielding blem +2 for 3 attacks.
I soloed a half-elf kensia through Soa and Tob campaigns only to fail at Melissan.
I also soloed a wild mage through Soa and Tob campaigns only to fail at Melissan.
Soloing is the worthy challenge for baldurs gate players who have been playing the game for years and completed the game several times.
I only wish there were a way to solo non-arcane spell casting classes through BG:EE. Without sleep, blindness and web the solo character is easily defeated in melee.
Also, as a side question, it doesn't mention it in the Dragon Disciple description, but do you get less lore as a Dragon Disciple than as a Sorcerer? It didn't say anything about that when I made it so I was kind of disappointed when he could identify just about nothing that was better than a +1 weapon.
Anyway I know someone who played a solo fighter through the Ascension mod, and a few others who've tried poverty runs and such, so I'm pretty sure any class can be soloed. For anyone willing to put in the effort, it's more a question of whether you can stand the tedium.
Pretty much the only class that gets high lore is the bard. Casters have marginally higher lore that indeed allows them to identify certain magical items like +1s, but that's it. Thieves too, iirc.
The difference between druids, clerics and mages boils down to spells. You're best off trying to figure that out yourself, unless what you want is a detailed post explaining all the potential uses of dozens of spells. In a nutshell tho, druids tend to excel against casters and humanoids. To point you in the right direction, consider the following spells in particular: Entangle, Call Lightning, Call Woodland Beings, Insect Plague, Ironskins, Conjure Animals, Conjure Fire Elemental, Creeping Doom, Harm, Heal and Nature's Beauty.
The Ravager seems tailor made for Blackguards. With the Blackguard's poison weapon ability, an enemy better hope they don't fail their save against poison or it's double jeopardy (Ravager inflicts bonus damage as poison) - and that's if they don't get decapitated right off.
So yea, my answer would be Halberds. OK in Baldur's Gate, but incredible in BG2 - especially in the hands of a capable Blackguard.
There are real advantages to using the summoner monster/animal x line of spells, but yes they are situational.
Longbows can do decent damage, especially early SoA, assuming uou imported for 19 str. Strongarm adds +3 damage, so your damage per round won't be noticeably worse than Tuigan for a non-Archer bow user. If you are an Archer though, apr of Tuigan is really solid, as you get so much added damage per hit. Also, more apr = better called shots.
Darts are really strong in BG1 imho, Stunning and Wounding with very high apr is hard to top, especially if you are able to add damage per hit. Darts go downhill in Bg2 though.
For proficiency limited classes, daggers are a great first choice, adding a strong ranged attack and allowing effective use of the Dagger of Venom.
EVERY class can do it and do it very easily. You just have to know what you are doing.
It s the same for bg2ee. Thieves are actually well suited to do it, thanks to traps and UAI.
As for the OP question i really like classes with poison weapon for ranged users (assassin, assassin/fighter, blackguard).
Poison weapon is very OP (please try it).
Regarding sorcerers, if you consider them as ranged characters, they end up being the most powerful class in the game. And don't worry for magical resistant monsters. there are ways to deal with them (MMM, summons, lower resist)