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NPC observations re alignment

FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
After a couple of adventures with my "evil" crew, I'm starting to think that NPC alignment is a matter of the words on the character screen; it doesn't seem to play much role in how they behave. They're all talk and no action.

Korgan wants to get his silly book and have revenge on his treacherous buds; OK, sounds reasonable.
Edwin was working for some unscrupulous thieves and wants some obscure scroll. Big deal.
Viconia doesn't seem to have any issues at all; she's just a cleric with high magic resistance and blue skin AFAIK.
Hexxat is closest to being truly evil, she uses and discards that servant girl and drinks blood. But it never seems to impact her behavior when on a group quest.

It's not like they periodically go out and kill and eat babies or murder old ladies for their few coins, and cheese off the local law enforcement (such as it is). They are more like "evil lite". Well, when I'm watching them anyway; I can't answer for how they spend their free time. MyChar doesn't care as long as they don't bring the cops down on HIS head.

Contrast this with something like the Slaver ring, or the Bridge district killer, or the Beholder cult cutting folks eyes out. Now, those guys are REALLY evil, with a capital E. I suspect the designers decided "Hey, a party with Edwin, Hexxat, Keldorn, Viconia and Anomen would be too OP, let's make it so they can't all work together. Oh I know! Alignment conflicts!". And for good measure, throw in some discontent if the party gets too good a reputation.

So, I am going to keep this bunch together for a while. Hexxat still has some quest to do, which apparently involves going to China (or someplace with an oriental sounding name, anyway) and I need to break Haer Dalis out of prison on another dimension. Jaheira seems to have no problem working with this bunch, and I dare say Yoshimo and Neera could function in the group as well, if I decide I need their various skills.

On the other hand, my good crew is probably more hard core tough. Difficult to say which way to finally go as far as a core group goes. Or is it important to develop such a group? Is there enough experience floating around to keep a number of extra NPCs more or less up to level? 8,000,000 experience to get to cap seems pretty high.
Post edited by FrdNwsm on
lunar

Comments

  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    (1) Korgan. He is a bloodthirsty killer. He's not stupid, but he really does enjoy killing people. That is what makes him evil. That...and when he is cut loose from your group, what does he do? He murders a dwarven clan leader, takes over the clan, and leads them on a pointless crusade against the drow. He is last seen laughing like a maniac while killing a drow priestess. Personally, I think he should be chaotic neutral.

    (2) Edwin. You meet a Liche who wants to keep a scroll safe. A liche who is undead merely because someone was hunting him and his students. When he demands the scroll, the liche's response is that nobody should have like it. Edwin straight up murders the guy.

    Edwin also has you murder a cowled wizard, asks you to murder a merchant for his documents, and is more than happy to be the right hand man for a man like Mae'Var...until Mae'Var stops being useful. That is pretty darn evil.

    (3) Viconia, unless she is redeemed, is pretty evil as well. She is a devout follower of Shar. Just look how Sharites act in the Baldur's Gate series! She encourages Charname to take the less moral path when she talks. Sure, she's not a mass-murdering psycopath...but then again, she is redeemable.

    JuliusBorisov
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    "when he is cut loose from your group, what does he do? He murders a dwarven clan leader, takes over the clan, and leads them on a pointless crusade against the drow. He is last seen laughing like a maniac while killing a drow priestess. "

    Well, that's interesting, and certainly makes him less benign in my eyes, but when does all this happen? Hasn't occurred yet on my watch.

    "When he demands the scroll, the lich's response is that nobody should have like it. Edwin straight up murders the guy. "

    Ah; we never even got to that point. As soon as we got to the room, we opened up with all the firepower we had. I mean ... LICH! ... my basic reaction was "kill it before it gets a spell off". There was zero chance for any dialogue. Guess I'm even meaner than Edwin.

    "Edwin also has you murder a cowled wizard,"

    And this is bad ... how? I wiped out a whole coven of Red Wizards, and IMO the cowl wearing dudes aren't much better. They claim to want to regulate magic use, and then turn around and sell you permits to use spells? Sounds like a Mafia protection racket to me.

    >>Just look how Sharites act in the Baldur's Gate series! She encourages Charname to take the less moral path when she talks<<

    Labels, labels, labels. I pay no attention to them. I haven't seen her do anything bad myself. As a Bhaalspawn, I am not about to condemn someone because of some blanket stereotype. Been there myself; look at that whole Harper persecution thing.
    Ardullunar
  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166
    FrdNwsm said:

    I mean ... LICH! ... my basic reaction was "kill it before it gets a spell off".


    I lol'd

    Seriously, this has been beaten to death on here the topic of alignments. You don't have to go around eating babies and skinning kittens alive to be evil, nor do you have to never tell a lie or not have stolen that pack of bubble gum when you were 10 to be good.

    People think you have to be Vlad the Impaler or Charles Manson to be Evil.... we're using a scale with 9 points on it to try to generalize an incredibly complex set of values.
  • mrb101mrb101 Member Posts: 66
    i would love it if alignment a bigger impact on the game, it would be nice if the story line had an evil alternative.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    mrb101 said:

    i would love it if alignment a bigger impact on the game, it would be nice if the story line had an evil alternative.

    I don't really want to get into it since the OP hasn't finished the game, but I do wonder what you mean. The main storyline of BG2 allows you to make some very evil choices.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    >>the OP hasn't finished the game,<<

    Finished?? I'm probably not even 1/4 through it. I have two quests left over from Chapter 2 that I haven't had a chance to do yet. I also have a ton of gold piling up in my keep, but I haven't gone to pick it up, despite being low on coin, because I have heard that this sets still more plots into action. Not to mention there are a couple of NPCs I haven't even met yet. I am sure they have things they want me to do also.
    joluv
  • mrb101mrb101 Member Posts: 66
    joluv said:

    mrb101 said:

    i would love it if alignment a bigger impact on the game, it would be nice if the story line had an evil alternative.

    I don't really want to get into it since the OP hasn't finished the game, but I do wonder what you mean. The main storyline of BG2 allows you to make some very evil choices.
    the main story is the same no matter what your alignment is, there is only one way to do it there is no choice.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Honestly, I accept that all of the above characters are evil, in that they're selfish and immoral and not at all above hurting people to get what they want, but I also agree that they're not extremely evil by the standards of some of the folks running around in the game. This is especially true of Viconia, whose worst crime is vaguely encouraging you to be mean. In the end, Dorn's the only NPC that really gives most of the villains a run of their money. And boy does he.
  • JoshBGJoshBG Member Posts: 91
    edited April 2015
    Viconia, for example, is a former member of a society where slavery, betrayal, murder(if done by the "rules") is a norm. Not to mention that 99% of this society worship an evil to the core god, who make them do terrible things. And Viconia left and changed her god because she had no other choice, not because she wanted to.

    Her comments here and there, and also the dialogues, perfectly reflect her alignment and her background, in my opinion. In general, I think Bioware did a splendid job in this field.
    Musigny
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    JoshBG said:

    Viconia, for example, is a former member of a society where slavery, betrayal, murder(if done by the "rules") is a norm. Not to mention that 99% of this society worship an evil to the core god, who make them do terrible things. And Viconia left and changed her god because she had no other choice, not because she wanted to.

    Her comments here and there, and also the dialogues, perfectly reflect her alignment and her background, in my opinion. In general, I think Bioware did a splendid job in this field.

    I'm not sure willfully betraying your god and culture because you can't stomach their level of evil, and then leaving to avoid the fallout, is precisely the same as simply being forced out. Viconia isn't sunshine and roses by any measure, but she left Lolth and the drow for moral reasons. That counts for something.
  • JoshBGJoshBG Member Posts: 91
    edited April 2015
    Well, no. If we follow the story, she didn't leave immediately after she refused to do a certain thing for Lolth, but after a certain event with her mother and her brother. Before that, she had hopes that everything will settle down.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    OK, I should perhaps clarify my meaning. What evil NPCs do when they aren't with me is beyond my control, and is pre-scripted to reflect certain elements of the story line, thus adding atmosphere. And I appreciate the attention to detail the developers showed here, I must say. With a bit of proper mind set, I can really get into the scenarios.

    And yes, it might well affect how they can be used later on. But when they ARE with me, they do what I say. If I want them to attack someone, they do. If I want them to refrain from attacking, they do that also. (As opposed to Keldorn who will attack certain evil beings on sight). At least, that's been my experience so far. As I said, the entire Edwin vs Lich thing never got a chance to happen. It does prove an exception to my rule, I will admit.

    But generally speaking, they may SAY provocative things, but don't act out on them. ::crosses his fat blue fingers::
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Yeah, but the reason things were bad for her in the first place was because she wasn't willing to stoop to her society's level of evil. Sure, her reaction wasn't "screw you guys, I'm otta here," but if she'd been acting like most drow, she'd never have had to leave. She didn't precisely *choose* to leave, but it was her moral choices that led to her leaving.
  • reap_iireap_ii Member Posts: 43
    I think its evil when a woman BLAMES you for accepting her sexual advances. So yeah she is evil.
  • JoshBGJoshBG Member Posts: 91
    Jarrakul said:

    Yeah, but the reason things were bad for her in the first place was because she wasn't willing to stoop to her society's level of evil. Sure, her reaction wasn't "screw you guys, I'm otta here," but if she'd been acting like most drow, she'd never have had to leave. She didn't precisely *choose* to leave, but it was her moral choices that led to her leaving.

    I would have to agree that there's a lot of room for interpretation. ;)

    But, I guess, it's for the best... :)
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