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Gotham

Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
edited April 2015 in Off-Topic
***do not read if you are not caught up***
***this thread assumes the most recent episode aired in the USA***
***please use spoilers when referring to an episode not yet aired***


Didn't realize there were a handful of Gotham watchers here. Any thoughts on the latest episode, the show in general, disappointments, and / or favorite moments?

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Initially, I found myself a little disappointed with the Ogre development. I was fully expecting an epic Red Hood season finale. This has actually been one of the sticking points for me, that they introduce too many interesting characters and sometimes drop them without explanation. I am willing to forgive this approach in an introductory season, but I hope these characters come back and propel subsequent seasons instead of bringing in more and more. There's plenty with which to work already for at least a couple of seasons.

In spite of my disappointment and apathy towards the new villain, this most recent episode (4/20) hooked me again and changed my attitude. I think they developed him pretty well and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. The buildup last night was really nice and left me feeling very satisfied and confident that they won't rush the finale. Dexter's final season sort of traumatized me in that regard.

Speaking of Dexter, is anyone else kind of hoping they send Nigma in that direction? I would find it great if he thought himself justified in offing bad guys, basically playing god, while simultaneously remaining employed at the GCPD and manipulating the crime scene forensics. I think a plot development like that gives you enough material to push him over the edge in a gradual way.

booinyoureyesmeaglothronaldoBelgarathMTH

Comments

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,435
    What's a Gotham? Some kind of goat ham?

    JuliusBorisov
  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    Actually... yes. Yes it is.

    booinyoureyes
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    I have watched up to episode 18, being a huge fan of the Gotham Central comics (Brubaker is my favorite writer of comics and Rucka isn't far behind).

    It has some good and some bad. I wish they made the show in the modern Gotham, and better yet a more direct adaptation of Gotham Central, but it still has some nice pieces to it. I really enjoy the Bruce and Alfred scenes, and the child actors do a great job (which is obviously very difficult to find).

    The show runs into the same problem a lot of network shows do: too many damn episodes. This leads to inevitable filler, which slows the momentum of the main storyline severely. I would much rather prefer a show with a 13 episode per season format, like Marvel did with their Netflix series. Daredevil (my favorite superhero) on Netflix was PERFECT and should be the go-to format for all mainstream superhero shows.

    I do enjoy Nigma, I must say. Bullock was cast well, but is sometimes cheesy, and I think they did very well with casting Gordon. Leslie Thompkins is also great, and a huge improvement on the Barbara character who they basically butchered if we're being honest. I hope to see more Montoya and Crispus Allen in the show, since they were the best characters in Gotham Central for sure.

    Fish Mooney... is horrible, and holds down the show. I like Jada Pinkett Smith a lot, and she is obviously the biggest name on this show, but they have given her character too much of a role. She was great early on when she played off of Penguin, but now has kinda overstayed her welcome. Penguin is cast wonderfully, and the actor is good. He overdoes it a bit but you kinda have to with a character like that. I'd prefer more Penguin and Falcone and a little bit less Fish Mooney.


    My opinion: Money casting job overall, and filmed well, but way too many filler, lower-quality, less-entertaining episodes. I don't really care much for a balloon-killer and teasing people with the Red Hood without actually having the Red Hood in the show. All the right elements are there, but the way they draw out the main plot kinda hurts the pacing of what is otherwise a good show.

    When I catch up this week or so, I'll way in more!

    Fiendish_WarriorBelgarathMTH
  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    There's of course the possibility for a letdown, but the trajectory of the main plot towards the finale over these most recent two episodes has been a great buildup. I just don't want to see some contrived deus ex machina for a preconceived ending. I hope they can let logical consequence dictate the actions and results.

    booinyoureyes
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    @booinyoureyes thats interesting. I think it actually moves quite quickly. I haven't really thought of much of it as filler. I quite like the way they spend time on a wide variety of characters, rather than just focusing on one or two main characters and only showing other people as they pertain to the main characters. Overall I like it quite a lot.



    It has some good and some bad. I wish they made the show in the modern Gotham

    This is something I've been wondering about. What year is this supposed to be? All the cars look classic, and there don't seem to be computers, but I could have sworn I saw penguin using a cell phone. I guess it doesn't really matter though.

    BelgarathMTH
  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    meagloth said:





    It has some good and some bad. I wish they made the show in the modern Gotham

    This is something I've been wondering about. What year is this supposed to be? All the cars look classic, and there don't seem to be computers, but I could have sworn I saw penguin using a cell phone. I guess it doesn't really matter though.
    Most of the possessions, clothing, vehicles, and other objects are intentionally anachronistic. They wanted it to be its own universe and so it is a medley of different time periods rolled into one. I think it's kind of neat personally and is pulled off remarkably well. I don't know why people complain about it and ignore the fact that there is no city of Gotham in the first place. That's like complaining about the ingredients used in Mama Bear's porridge.

    meaglothBelgarathMTH
  • SethDavisSethDavis Developer Posts: 1,811
    /me grumbles about where she even gets porridge in the first place

    I really like the show, they had a rough patch at the beginning where they beat you over the head with references, but they've really evened out and renewed my appreciation for the villains. I always kinda discarded Penguin in other media, but this guy gives the Joker a run for his money in my books.

    The thing I find weird is the ages they're going with. If our normal Batman is in his 30's then the people he decks every night are at least going to be running on 50? O_o 'Cept good ol' Pam and Selina of course.

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    I acknowledge that it is a problem, but I'll take my best crack at it to blunt the concern a little.

    In the comics, Bruce is portrayed as anywhere between 6 and 10 when Thomas is murdered. The actor that plays him is 14 in real life, which makes him 10 at a minimum with a strong possibility that they're even diverging from canon. Even though Taylor is 36, given that Penguin is starting at the bottom, it's likely intended that he is in his 20s rather than 30s. If Penguin is, say, around 26, then there's only a 12-15 year spread, which isn't too bad. The actor that plays Nigma is 28 in real life, which gives us a similar age gap unless we suppose Nigma is supposed to be younger. Putting him at 22 to 24 isn't a stretch. He seems relatively new at GCPD and so likely fresh out of college. That would narrow the age gap to 8ish years. That still seems a little too large for him relative to Batman, but it at least moves us into the realm of plausibility.

    SethDavisBelgarathMTH
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806

    meagloth said:





    It has some good and some bad. I wish they made the show in the modern Gotham

    This is something I've been wondering about. What year is this supposed to be? All the cars look classic, and there don't seem to be computers, but I could have sworn I saw penguin using a cell phone. I guess it doesn't really matter though.
    Most of the possessions, clothing, vehicles, and other objects are intentionally anachronistic. They wanted it to be its own universe and so it is a medley of different time periods rolled into one. I think it's kind of neat personally and is pulled off remarkably well. I don't know why people complain about it and ignore the fact that there is no city of Gotham in the first place. That's like complaining about the ingredients used in Mama Bear's porridge.
    I wasn't complaining, it hasn't exacty ruined the show for me, but it just struck me as odd. Aslo gotham is New York. I guess it's technically not, but it is.

    I though Bruce was 12 in the show. I don't remember where I heard that but that's what I thought. I don't know much(see: anything) about batman canon, but batman being in his mid 20's makes sense in my head.

  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    edited April 2015
    meagloth said:

    meagloth said:





    It has some good and some bad. I wish they made the show in the modern Gotham

    This is something I've been wondering about. What year is this supposed to be? All the cars look classic, and there don't seem to be computers, but I could have sworn I saw penguin using a cell phone. I guess it doesn't really matter though.
    Most of the possessions, clothing, vehicles, and other objects are intentionally anachronistic. They wanted it to be its own universe and so it is a medley of different time periods rolled into one. I think it's kind of neat personally and is pulled off remarkably well. I don't know why people complain about it and ignore the fact that there is no city of Gotham in the first place. That's like complaining about the ingredients used in Mama Bear's porridge.
    I wasn't complaining, it hasn't exacty ruined the show for me, but it just struck me as odd. Aslo gotham is New York. I guess it's technically not, but it is.

    I though Bruce was 12 in the show. I don't remember where I heard that but that's what I thought. I don't know much(see: anything) about batman canon, but batman being in his mid 20's makes sense in my head.
    I hope you didn't read the comment about complaining as a reference to you; it wasn't. I sometimes read summaries, articles, and comments about movies and television shows on a lot of different sites. I was referencing it as a frequent complaint that I come across elsewhere. Apologies for the confusion. I honestly didn't read anything into your question other than good curiosity.

    One of my favorites is Film School Rejects.

    meagloth
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    watched the last three episodes. @meagloth was completely right, they were awesome. All three storylines (Bruce/Selina, Riddler and of course Gordon/Barbara) were on point.

    meaglothFiendish_WarriorBelgarathMTHSethDavis
  • Amber_ScottAmber_Scott Member Posts: 513
    I'm really not into Gotham, but I find it weirdly inspirational. So I keep watching and writing my own AU scenes which is weird because I've never been a huge Batman fan, so... yeah.

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,437
    I actually really like Fish. I think she injects a much-needed unknown to the story; while all of the other big players are known to still exist when Batman is around, Fish is someone new that isn't in the comics. At any given moment, we don't know whether she'll survive what she's going through, and in a show where most of the characters are on a predetermined trajectory, that's a welcome change.

    My wife doesn't like the show much, but I enjoy it. Granted, it's no Agent Carter...

    Fiendish_WarriorBelgarathMTHSethDavis
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    I have watched the show from the beginning, and will continue to do so. I like what they are doing showing the genesis of some of the characters (even if it deviates wildly from established Comic story lines). I am also a big fan of Sean Pertwee and so am glad that he gets screen time. And obviously having Morena back on Television is always a good thing.

    Honestly (and this is personal and subjective) I sometimes find it hard to see The Batman as a bit of a whiny brat, or love sick pup. I get that he is supposed to be a 14 year old child, but I just think that he would be more of a cold and calculating sociopath, keeping his emotions 100% in check and bottling things up. There was one scene where he falls down a hill and hurts himself. When he finally gets back up to the top of the hill, he whines for Alfred to help him up. The Batman would not (in my subjective view) do that, even as a child. And then the scene where Celina rejects him... Not The Batman (all subjective).

    But I like a lot of the characters. I think Penguin is done well, if a bit over the top. I think there is a lot of potential with Nygma. I am not a huge fan of the way they are doing Zazz, but it's a direction. I think that their take on Joker was a bit premature, but again I don't fault them for at least trying it. If it had been me, he would have had a much longer story as an introduction instead of a one off. The Mob story lines are interesting as well particularly as I like David Zayas's portrayal. And I do like Fish. Shame she won't be back next season.

    I especially like how they handle Celina. Not so much how Bruce interacts with her, but her performance itself is good. I think she brings the right playfulness and evasiveness to the role, even if some of the writing is a bit iffy on that topic. I think the actress is quite good for someone so young.

    I will agree with a lot of the critics in that they seem to be meandering with the plot a bit. They set off in one direction and then just drop that line in favor of something else. I was thinking, with the latest group of stories that they could tie things in with the original 'hook', that of the Wayne murders. Then they tossed that to the wind. If I had to guess, I'd say that the producers got feedback about the initial couple of episodes that basically said 'Change directions' and they did. Only they had trouble leading the audience in that new direction. I do agree that the most recent episodes seem more solid and back in 'A direction' if not the same one they started with.

    I think the show could learn a lot from Daredevil though. Just sayin...

    All in my humble opinion.

    BelgarathMTHSethDavisFiendish_Warrior
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Dee said:

    Granted, it's no Agent Carter...

    Now that show was the Beez Kneez

    Agent Carter and Daredevil are what superhero shows need to be. Flash, Arrow, Gotham, Agents of Shield are nice too, but those two really upped the ante the way that the first X-Men movie did for film (before The Dark Knight took it to the next level).

    the_spyderFiendish_Warrior
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @booinyoureyes @Dee - absolutely 'Agent Carter' was very cool and among the best shows out this season. Shame it won't get a season 2. What is even more of a shame is that it seems to be running a-foul of the same issue as Black Widow in that because it is a strong Female lead, it isn't being given as much PR and media coverage as other Male dominant programming.

    On a separate note, has anyone here seen the Gotham season finale? Thoughts?

    booinyoureyesFiendish_Warrior
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162

    @booinyoureyes @Dee - absolutely 'Agent Carter' was very cool and among the best shows out this season. Shame it won't get a season 2. What is even more of a shame is that it seems to be running a-foul of the same issue as Black Widow in that because it is a strong Female lead, it isn't being given as much PR and media coverage as other Male dominant programming.

    On a separate note, has anyone here seen the Gotham season finale? Thoughts?

    @the_spyder it is getting a second season, thankfully.

    Also, completely disagree on Black Widow, she gets almost too much coverage being in pretty much every movie and being the one really established star cast in a Marvel movie. Johannsen is the biggest name in the MCU, even over RDJ.

    Haven't seen the finale yet (watched the NBA last night) but will finish it today!

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Just watched the finale.
    i liked it. I was surprised where they went with Barbra and lee. Is Barbra dead? I'm not entirely surprised it happened, but it happened so soon. That could have played out over a few episodes.
    I'm glad fish is dead, from a character standpoint. I've kinda been rooting for penguin. He's really a perfect villain, I think. He's cold and calculating but still falls into fits of rage and shoots the room up:)
    Who was Gordon's dad? Was his association with Maroni something I was supposed to know about? The bit with the knife was really nice.

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    edited May 2015
    @booinyoureyes - As far as Black Widow is concerned, she is in a fair number of movies, but not as many as Iron Man (Black Widow = 4 movies/Iron Man = 6 movies and counting). Granted, all of the others have only been in 4 but she is only ever a supporting character, never a main character. Every other 'Main' character in the Avengers has their OWN franchise, but not her. And there isn't even any talk of that happening despite the impressive list of other characters that are being pursued (all of whom are male).

    And the actual franchising done around her character is almost nill. There's actually quite a stink over it. If you take a look at all of the promo posters, she is only represented in a small fraction of them and almost never alone yet every other Main character is prominent and distinguished. Additionally, if you look at the toy distribution, Iron Man dolls and toys number in the hundreds whereas Black Widow has fewer than a dozen.

    And while Scar-Jo may be a lot easier on the eyes than RDJ, there is absolutely no question that the latter is a LOT more prominent than the former within Marvel Universe (again, 6 all of which he is a main versus 4, all of which she is a supporting).

    But enough of my Soap Box.

    SethDavisFiendish_Warrior
  • SethDavisSethDavis Developer Posts: 1,811

    And while Scar-Jo may be a lot easier on the eyes than RDJ, there is absolutely no question that the latter is a LOT more prominent than the former within Marvel Universe

    I agree, but maybe he was talking about films in general? I can't think of another movie RDJ is in, but SJ keeps popping up

    booinyoureyesFiendish_Warrior
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    @the_spyder Even in the comics Black Widow isn't really a "Main" character, certainly not as big a character as Hulk (who she is in more movies than), Thor (also in more movies) Captain America and Iron Man, more on the level of Hawkeye. She rarely had an ongoing series and they didn't last long. We really should be comparing her to Hawkeye, and she gets far more prominent roles than he has had, particularly in the Winter Soldier.

    She actually had a huge role in The Winter Soldier, second only to Cap obviously, and got far more screentime than Falcon and was on the poster while Falcon WASN'T (he got jobbed!). She essentially replaced Falcon as the second to Captain America, and was a far bigger role than Bucky was in the first movie (my main gripe with the First Avenger movie)

    What I meant by RDJ is that Marvel helped revitalize his career. He wasn't getting big roles before playing Iron Man. His performance as Tony Stark led him to get other roles, like Sherlock Holmes.

    No major Marvel hero got a superstar actor to play them except for Black Widow. Everyone else was a smaller name (Hemsworth, Ruffalo and Evans aren't nearly as big). She also made DOUBLE for the first movie what any other actor besides Robert Downey Jr made. In terms of toys sold, that's just market forces at work, you can't expect Black Widow to sell as much as Iron Man (the fan favorite).

    As far as the Age of Ultron poster, she's only less prominent than the big 4, and equal with Hawkeye (which is the best comparison in terms of importance to the history of Avengers comics and popularity). I think you may be overrating her popularity.

    Personally I think Hawkeye and Black Widow would make a great team for a awesome buddy-cop SHIELD movie, but I'm sure if that would be a money maker Marvel would have been made that. Throw in Nick Fury and I'd pay big big bucks to see it.



    Of course if I was in charge of the Marvel Cinematic Universe the most prominent characters would be Daredevil, Spider-Woman, Hercules, Elektra, Dr. Strange and Falcon but this is why they didn't interview me for president of Marvel Studios (the jerks)

    Fiendish_Warriormeagloth
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @meagloth

    Regarding the Barbara story line---
    I agree with you that they could have done the Barbara/Lee story line well into season 2 if they had so chosen. I imagined that Barbara would hint at Lee and basically tease her but whenever Lee tried to convince Jim that Barbara was crazy, he wouldn't believe it. I think that could have gone on for a while and left a widening gap in the Jim/Lee relationship.


    Regarding Fish.
    I am also glad that Fish got finished off and that Penguin got his closure. Since Jada was leaving the show anyway, I suppose they had to do something, but it felt a bit forced to me. I was thinking that if they had left her on the island she could have come back with 'Plastic surgery' (a whole different actress) and made that a continuing sub-story in season 2.


    Regarding season 2.
    I was thinking that the whole Falcone/Maroney shooting war was a perfect beginning point/hook for season 2. If they had kept that going they would have had a really interesting place to dive in. As it is, I felt like they wrapped it up almost like they didn't know they were going to have a season 2. Certainly the last scene with Falcone felt like a hand off/stopping point that could/should have been a much longer time in the coming.


    All in my opinion. I enjoyed it though.

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    I'm going to continue talking about Gotham, but would anyone be opposed to me renaming the thread to Marvel / DC Comic TV Shows? I enjoyed the Marvel digression and don't want to discourage those sorts of things. I'd be completely fine with any kind of comic adaptation talk in this thread to be honest.

  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    edited May 2015
    Regarding the Ogre Episodes (sans Finale):

    I honestly thought the Ogre episodes were some of the best Gotham episodes this season, and that surprised me because my expectations were very low when he was introduced. It's funny how people can see the same thing and develop totally different ideas, and in this case, these episodes instigated a lot of discussion about their coherency and quality. There's enough data here to draw wildly different conclusions and explanations. Generally, that's not a bad thing, but it can also easily slide into bad if the actors, directors, and writers are not careful. In this case, I find it very good.


    Ogre & Barbara Storyline (sans Finale and composed prior to finale for a different site):

    One of the sticking points in the episode prior to the finale was Barbara. To be honest, she was a sticking point for most fans throughout most of the season, but I think the disgust with her character caused people to over-analyze "The Anvil and the Hammer" to the point where they were finding problems that weren't really there.

    For example, one analysis had complained about the Ogre placing a bag over Barbara's head in his apartment, arguing that she already knew who he was and it was therefore self-defeating. I asked myself, however, whether a bag over the head is only a tool for kidnapping? For me, I saw it as Ogre's attempt to "play" with her. The goal was to induce a submissive state of trauma in someone who was otherwise being resilient and aggressive. He wanted to psychologically break her in the hope that she would see the world as he sees it.

    In fact, I felt as if I saw a realistic portrayal of Stockholm Syndrome unfolding. Her facial expressions were oscillating back and forth between hope for escape, disbelief, hatred, and love, ultimately giving way to confusion before....emptiness. That blank stare during the climax was telling for me. She was stuck in a dreamlike state, a dark phantasy come to life if you will, and her awareness of some type of realness to it all stunned her into a kind of living coma.

    Another related question that critics asked was: Why volunteer her parents? They felt like the previous episode, "Under the Knife," hinted at her being dark, but according to them, "The Anvil and the Hammer" retconned this by making her play the victim via the helpless female in need of a hero trope. I asked the question to myself and received a different answer though. For me, she volunteered her parents because she is dark and had a sick fascination she wanted to explore but simultaneously suppress. She had a contradictory desire to kill them in phantasy but preserve them in reality. What happens when reality slips into phantasy? This. The dark urges prevail in a kind of conscious twilight. Being semi-cognizant of the possibility of the reality of the situation ultimately paralyzes Barbara (as all contradictions must). The result is that she was going through the motions, sleepwalking in a way, and nothing seemed real, which was evident in her confused acknowledgment of Jim's presence. Her conscious experience proved both imminent and yet alien.

    The more looming problem for me with that episode wasn't the above (I thought it executed really well). I'm actually curious to see what they do with Barbara. Surely, at minimum, she's an accessory if she didn't partake in the kills herself. There is soooooo much potential here, but I have a feeling Gotham will just gloss over it and paint her as the victim (which she clearly isn't) and then wash their hands clean of it, like it never happened. There should be a serious legal issue here as well as some kind of PTSD. Can they follow through with the logic?


    "The Anvil and the Hammer" Miscellaneae (pre-finale episode):

    I know I've said this before in this thread, but the Riddler has the makings of being fantastic and I'm almost hoping for a quasi-Dexter treatment for a little while. I want to see him use his position in the department and his knowledge of forensics to hide his crimes, and I really hope they don't rush his progression in Season Two, which I presume will focus on Riddler. A slow burn like that would be a nice catalyst to a villain with an inflated ego from a massive intellect and a desire to make bolder moves.

    I really liked Bruce's interaction with Alfred, which must have put Alfred in an awkward position. On the one hand, Bruce is a child and you feel like a parent to him, but on the other hand, he's your boss and you're his servant. It must be difficult to straddle that relationship, especially in more serious situations such as his confession about Reggie. I imagine that the conversation continued and was very challenging for Alfred, but I also think this scene wasn't pursued because they didn't want to overshadow the important part of it, which, as far as Gotham is concerned, was Bruce's insight that good men can have secrets. One of my favorite things about this show is seeing how Batman comes together. For example, his plan to get to Bunderslaw's secret needed to fail because it was his first big plan. And it does. Brilliantly. You can guarantee he learned from it and will not allow someone like Bunderslaw to outsmart him again. Batman's ability to be 10 steps ahead of everyone developed and I love how the show is disclosing that evolution with young Bruce through a gradual process filled with mistakes.

    I am reluctantly hopeful regarding the mob war angle. It could be fantastic or an utter disaster. I was expecting Ogre to take us up through the finale, but considering that this season is the rise of Penguin, it makes sense that it needs to conclude with him in a significant way. I hope he dials in one of those big favors to Jim and makes it completely counter to Jim's character.

  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    edited May 2015
    Regarding the Finale:

    This may come as a surprise, but I absolutely hated it. Maybe that's a bit hyperbolic, but in a way, that's appropriate. In my opinion, they tried to interweave way too many story threads into 40ish minutes, and that is a task doomed to fail. I also felt like the execution was a little too over-the-top in a quasi-Joel-Schumacher-Batman-&-Robin way.

    First, the good:

    I liked how they handled Riddler and Barbara (which I suspected as much after last week's episode).

    A point of confusion for Barbara critics this week was the accusation that they retconned her role in the events of her parents' deaths. Last week, we're shown the knife in Ogre's hands as he walks towards her parents with Barbara looking on in horror while this week, Barbara claims she did the deed. I'm not a Barbara fan or anything, but I once again feel like the criticism isn't warranted. For one, just because it looks as if Ogre is going to kill her parents, it doesn't follow that nothing intervened, that there wasn't a Charles Mansonesque conversation / seduction, that Barbara didn't request to do it before he did, etc. For two, even if things are as the critics claimed, this description of the killing is from her perspective, which is likely highly unreliable given her mental state both during that event and at present with Lee. In spite of this defense, however, I agree with @meagloth and @the_spyder above that this was a storyline better suited for elongated treatment into season two, saving some much needed screen time for other things in this finale.

    The dynamic between Falcone and Jim was very good, and if we're being honest, it's a shame that it wasn't explored further throughout the season. John Doman (Falcone) can be such a captivating presence on screen and I loved his portrayal of Bill Rawls on The Wire. This season could've used his presence a little more in non-trivial ways. Exploring Gordon's backstory via his father through the use of Falcone was one way that could've been done. Still, the knife speech to Gordon was brilliant. It was an obvious metaphor for and foreshadowing of future Commissioner Gordon's own knife, Batman.

    And, the Bad:

    But Falcone's decision to retire? Mildly disliked it, largely because it wasn't even suggested throughout the season, even subtly, and seemed so ad hoc, like the rest of the episode in my opinion. In addition to toning down the Barbara / Lee angle, they would have been much better off forgetting Fish and reintroducing her to start a surprise season two opener. Don't get me wrong, I don't care for Fish and am not endorsing the idea that she have a significant, ongoing presence in season two, but she didn't need to be in this episode (not by a long shot) and it felt forced.

    Among the other forced moves:

    * Selina joining Fish and completely rewriting her personality. She might eventually get that way on her way to Catwoman, but to change her that much in a single episode? Get outta here!

    * Penguin not scheming but reacting emotionally, getting all Scarface on us. First, with the numbers not in his favor, that was a death wish and about as reckless as you can get. But more problematically, that wasn't Penguin for me. Throughout the whole season, he never did anything that foolish without some deeper plan. I get the intensity of the moment and all of that, but that was just a little too much. In addition, the way it was shot reminded me of the bad parts of a 90s Batman movie. It just wasn't believable, and for the record, I'm a staunch defender of suspending belief in fiction. I just couldn't do it here because it felt like a violation of their own internal logic rather than a violation of my expectations and understanding of the real world, the former of which is far more important to me than the latter on the topic of believability. It wasn't consistent with the Penguin character they revealed to me throughout the whole season.

    * And why didn't Penguin shoot at Falcone with his machine gun? Was he respecting his decision to retire? Who does that? If he was cognizant enough to refrain from firing at Jim, then he was cognizant enough to not enter that fit of reckless rage in the first place. But he had every incentive to fire upon Jim at that point for having ruined his plan to kill Falcone, not honoring his promise, and arresting him / getting him into that situation in the first place.

    * Butch getting all Of-Mice-and-Men-George on us. What was that all about? I understand that Zsasz broke his mind, but that was just...bizarre? I like Drew Powell's Butch, a lot, and one of my pain points is that I feel like he was also under-utilized this season. That bit at the end though just made me feel like it wasn't Butch at all. It also seemed like a copout by shooting both. Either overcome the mind-screw by loyalty / love for Fish or make it irresistible. I certainly didn't want a non-commitment from the writers there. Also, the premise of the mind-screw didn't make sense to me. Did Zsasz "re-program" him for Penguin or for Falcone, such that serving Penguin was one means to that? I got the impression that it was the latter, and so the minute Penguin turned on Falcone in Butch's presence, I was fully expecting Butch to turn on Penguin. Nope.

    * Fashion week with the Fish gang. What was with those costumes, including Selina's makeover? They turned her and her gang into a caricature straight from Batman & Robin. It was ridiculous. Does someone aspiring to run the city by quickly leveraging a volatile situation between crime families really care that much about fashion such that, in her two weeks in hiding, she managed to go shopping for everyone, get their nails done, and style their hairs? Give me a break. I understand the purpose of creating a kind of "uniform" for one's army, but that was a little too much.

    * The awkward re-capturing of Jim, Falcone, and Harvey. When Fish's gang caught them for the second time, why bother re-capturing them? Marone was dead and Fish's main adversary was Penguin. She already made it clear that she had planned to kill Jim and Falcone already when she had them strung up. Was it really necessary to escort them back to Fish for more evil villain talk? It is the Achilles' Heel of every villain that they, as a matter of OCD, must discuss their plans and how they have the upper-hand with the heroes before killing them. Talk about tropes. Never fails.

    Concluding Thoughts:

    This episode could have been much tighter, less contrived, and more in tune with the characters' personalities that they've developed over the course of the season. Instead, they tried to do too much and it cost them dearly. This episode should have focused on Penguin devising a brilliant plan, perhaps even creating a moral dilemma for Jim by requesting a favor that is too difficult for Jim to refuse (or by calling in a favor that looks innocent but plays into a trap / scheme). Barbara should have been toned down, playing up the PTSD elements but delaying gratification of that arc until next season (much like the Riddler development), and the same should have been done with the Fish story arc. They could've even let Falcone retire / escape (and where was Zsasz when Falcone needed him most?).

    Verdict: underwhelming and disappointing in spite of being absurdly over-the-top most of the time. It just wasn't the entertaining kind of over-the-top. I agree with @the_spyder. It seemed contrived and rushed, as if they were ending the series rather than the season. There was no reason to feel compelled to try and tie up as many loose ends as they did.

  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    FWIW, much of that analysis is motivated by the fact that I thought the Ogre episodes leading up to it were borderline brilliant for network television.

  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    Re Season Two:

    Shirking all common sense, Gotham announced that the focus of season two will be on the Joker. How? Why? I loved Cameron Monaghan's performance as much as anyone, but shouldn't Season Two's focus be on the Riddler? Didn't they push him just enough this season to allow for a really interesting development over season two? This doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, make the Joker a side story here and there to set up season three. Decisions like this leave me less than optimistic.

    Source: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/gotham-boss-bruno-heller-season-792824

    Not a bad read either. It addresses most of the concerns I had, but I still disagree with the decisions and execution even if the rationale is there.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,374
    edited May 2015
    I quite like the show, but only because some of the villains are very well characterised (shame about the heroes). It tries to do way too much without fully developing the plotlines it has.

    I agree that making Nigma a Dexter-like anti-hero would be a good move, and saying "enough!" to the Batman rogues gallery.

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806



    * Selina joining Fish and completely rewriting her personality. She might eventually get that way on her way to Catwoman, but to change her that much in a single episode? Get outta here!


    image

    Fiendish_Warrior
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @Fiendish_Warrior - some really good analysis there. Thanks for that.

    I would say this (hopefully spoiler free), I think maybe you are giving too much credit to the writers and the actress with some of your analysis of Barbara's character. But that is merely my opinion. Otherwise I think you are spot on.

    Fiendish_Warrior
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