Off-Hand THAc0
Giant2005
Member Posts: 43
I have been mucking about with the editor comparing end-game builds (In this case Kensai/Thief vs Swash/Cleric), and one thing I noticed is that I have no idea how the hell Off-Hand THAC0 is calculated.
With 3 pips in Two-Weapon Style and a cloak that reduces Off-Hand THAC0 by 2, in theory both the main-hand and off-hand weapons should share the same THAC0. However the fully equipped 24 Kensai/28 Thief had a 13 point difference in THAC0 between his main and off-hand and the 25 Swash/28 Cleric had a 6 point difference in THAC0 between his main and off-hand.
In the Fighter' case, 3 points of that difference can be accounted for via the difference in weapon enchantments and the same can be said of 1 point of the Cleric's. However, I have no idea where the rest of the difference is coming from.
The gear isn't relevant as I watched the THAC0 of both weapons change appropriately as each item was equipped. Something within the characters themselves explains the disparity.
With 3 pips in Two-Weapon Style and a cloak that reduces Off-Hand THAC0 by 2, in theory both the main-hand and off-hand weapons should share the same THAC0. However the fully equipped 24 Kensai/28 Thief had a 13 point difference in THAC0 between his main and off-hand and the 25 Swash/28 Cleric had a 6 point difference in THAC0 between his main and off-hand.
In the Fighter' case, 3 points of that difference can be accounted for via the difference in weapon enchantments and the same can be said of 1 point of the Cleric's. However, I have no idea where the rest of the difference is coming from.
The gear isn't relevant as I watched the THAC0 of both weapons change appropriately as each item was equipped. Something within the characters themselves explains the disparity.
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Comments
I can't figure out what your problem would be, that you're having such discrepancies. Do you have any mods installed?
I'm pretty sure the equipment isn't a factor as I watched it modify the THAC0 as it should, but I'll list it anyway just in case I missed something:
Belt of Inertial Barrier
Helm of Balduran
Gloves of Extraordinary Specialization
Amulet of the Master Harper
Ring of Gaxx
Ring of Earth Control
Belm (Off-Hand for both)
Shuruppak's Plate
Scarlet Ninja-To (Main-Hand for Swash/Cleric)
Club of Detonation +5 (Main-Hand for Kensai/Thief)
Montolio's Cloak
I can't promise I can help, but maybe upload your character file and let me take a look at it?
As for the guy himself, I don't really know wtf is going on. Even when completely naked just putting a weapon in his off-hand shows an off-hand THAC0 well below the empty main-hand. I don't really recall at what moments the Specializations were taken but maybe the Dual-Classed Fighter thing isn't working as well as it seems to. I might have taken Grand Mastery as a Thief without the Grand Mastery actually counting for anything. Although on second thoughts, that probably isn't the case as I was witnessing similar effects although on a smaller scale with the Swash/Cleric dual-class and that doesn't even have Grand Mastery.
And Pantalion, I agree - the Off-hand weapon is largely irrelevant. I just noticed the different values and was curious as to how off-hand THAC0 was calculated as I couldn't figure it out. Although now it seems that that curiosity was pointless as Off-Hand THAC0 is calculated the same as the main-hand. It is just that something weird is going on with me.
What is kind of interesting though is that I have Haer'Daelis Dual-Wielding too and his off-hand THAC0 is just fine.
And in the end, it'll be like that missing HP thing, where the problem is right in front of me, and makes me feel like an idiot :P
EXTRA: How to tell if it's better to use Crom Faeyr in the offhand or an APR weapon (assuming you don't want to pair CF + APR in the first place which is probably best)
APR = your total APR *without* an APR offhand
CFstr = the damage bonus you get from CF's 25 STR; this depends on how much STR you have without it
AVGmh = average damage of your main hand weapon, per hit (no bonuses, just pure weapon damage including procs)
APRbon = the amount of bonus APR you get from the APR offhand (usually 1)
Using those variables, we can calculate what would be needed for both variants (CF oh vs. APR oh) to break even:
APR*CFstr = AVGmh*APRbon
This can then be transformed to allow us to solve for the variable we'd like to look at:
AVGmh = (APR*CFstr)/APRbon
-> this tells you how much average main hand damage you'd need to do at least as much damage with a given APR bonus as you would with Crom Faeyr in the offhand
APRbon = (APR*CFstr)/AVGmh
-> this tells you how much APR bonus you would need to deal at least as much damage with a given main hand as with Crom Faeyr
EXAMPLE 1:
Foebane+5 as main hand; 13+ Fighter with Grand Mastery and 19 STR
APR = 4
CFstr = 7 [for 19->25 STR]
AVGmh = 12.5 [2d4+5+1d4]
How much APR bonus would we need for APR oh to be > CF oh?
APRbon = (APR*CFstr)/AVGmh
-> APRbon = (4*7)/12.5 = 2.24
Oh dear! The best APR offhand is only +1, meaning it's better to use Crom Faeyr!
EXAMPLE 2:
Kundane as offhand; 13+ Fighter with Grand Mastery and 22 STR
APR = 4
CFstr = 4 [for 22->25 STR]
APRbon = 1
How much average damage per hit would a main hand need to do so that APR oh > CF oh?
AVGmh = (APR*CFstr)/APRbon
-> AVGmh = (4*4)/1 = 16
Quite a lot! Is there a weapon with that much damage? The highest-damage mainhand (unmodded) is Flail of Ages+5, which does 19.5 average damage per hit (1d6+6+2+2+2+2+2) - yep, that's more! But that's no surprise, after all we've given this to a character already at 22 STR; this would usually be the one with the Girdle of Fire Giant Strength, or a CHARNAME loaded with STR bonuses (many people like to do that).
CONCLUSION: Crom Faeyr is an amazing offhand, for everyone except those with already very high STR.
CAVEAT: Crom Faeyr + APR offhand itself is still the best option, as CF actually has great damage main hand damage (2d4+3+5 = 13 average; more than Foebane+5). Also, THAC0 has been disregarded in this calculation, but can be VERY relevant in many scenarios; this gives a big advantage to CF as well, since STR increases melee THAC0.
AND AS ALWAYS: Individual setups make for HUGE differences! Always think about your own situation, and what variables are involved how. This is intended as a rough guideline to help you figure out your own personal puzzle.
Also Caeria had it working fine over there so obviously the Kensai bonus was being applied to the off-hand in that instance.