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I thought the whole writing thing was exaggerated but this dialog...

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  • GrimLefourbeGrimLefourbe Member Posts: 637
    edited April 2016
    You think half orcs can't talk like this? Damn your prejudice against half orcs.

    Half orcs have a lower maximum intelligence but 16 is still a lot. Remember Charname grew up in Candlekeep, i'm pretty sure he can talk the way he wants.

    @Diogenes42 Don't slap me, I didn't know.
  • DarjiDarji Member Posts: 20
    Yeah the problem is here how it is written. Its just ridiculous. I now wonder if there is also a check your privilege in there...
    PelmaleonWillyML4Quartz
  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229

    If you bring up their Intelligence malus on character creation I will slap you.

    Since they can put only one response it should be average one for the race you are playing with.
    Unless they put an Intelligence check there and had two different responses. On average Half-Orcs are retarded.
  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 244
    I think that including conversations that depend of the race on is playing with is rather cool. It gives one the chance to look forward to see something new in a different play through using a different character.

    Would be nice if there were conversations that depend on alignment or reputation too. :)
    Illustair
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2016
    Beowulf said:

    I hate half-orcs myself too.

    On the other hand you miss his point. His point is he was looking to play an escape from the real world social issues that are so hurtful and sad in our real world society. He and I did not want to buy a game about a Fantasy Non-real-worldof-DnD and then suddenly find ourselves in a left wing social justice classroom. I do not know who or what Beam dog was thinking when they created these dialogues

    Going along this agenda we have militant aggressive women too - instead of the coy thief Marilyn Monroe of BG 1 Saphina has turned into a mean spirited threatening woman of Super Feminist who takes a prickly stance against dirty Bealoths advances. Further you have the new female Corwinn archer who is Sharteel X 10 and rebuffs my male character when he says stupid remarks to her. I want cheerful happy girls ala 1980 Conan the Barbarian like Imoen in BG1 when she was a happy girl. There really are no ladies like this in the SOE game they are all empowered Type-A-Girl-Power fighters- Whoooa Wymyn let's go do a march girlz!

    I would guess you are all under 30 or on the left side so this sort of chat is unobtrusive and agreeable to you. I for one support total and as close as society can get to anarchy as possible with still maintaining a government to enforce property rights and unite the country to destroy invaders. That also means I feel all men and women should be free to love, as they like - even if I find their choice of a spouse personally strange. It also means I think men and women and all races should be free and equal. But, it does not mean I want to give any one group more or less power or privilege.

    Beamdog really just went out of their way to be social justice warriors in this game. I would be mad if they had some priest quote the bible- which I like - too. Social justice (or bible quotes for that matter- not worried they would ever put those in though) preaching has NO PLACE IN DnD. Next expansion please keep the real world modern concerns and agendas OUT of the DnD game. If I want to hear some guy blast the left I can hear Alex Jones rant on and on. If I want to hear about how genders or non-traditional relationship people are oppressed I can watch a furry emo kid talk about how he is bullied at school for wearing dog ears on youtube too- but as a rule I do avoid those both.

    I do not want to buy a product about DnD and then get my role play thespian moments wrecked with inane modern sentiment dialogues about racism, feminism, or transgender issues!

    Please watch this and then feel better do some snaps - not clap hands it could trigger feelings- and have a time out if the violence in DnD fights makes you feel sad inside. Then go do a social justice march on some out of reality Ivy L Skool. But, don't put it in my a DnD game just to teach me your world view.

    We are reaching a point where if a game reflects any social realities you don't like, it is "pushing an agenda" on you. How fragile you must be.

    Women have made advances in equality and empowerment, so the game reflects that (show me a game that still writes women as meek "Marilyn Monroes"). LGBTQ people are gaining growing recognition in our society, so games reflect that as well. The game portrays a (gasp!) single mother because we live in a society WHERE MILLIONS OF SINGLE MOTHERS EXIST.

    The problem isn't that the game is pushing an agenda, the problem is that it's reflective of social changes you don't like. Too bad. You can't expect developers to walk on eggshells to avoid offending the sensibilities of every gamer desperately stuck in 1953.

    Don't like it, don't play it. Move on with your life.
    redlineMortiannaKrotos
  • PelmaleonPelmaleon Member Posts: 14
    edited April 2016
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with irl social issues and themes being in video games, video games which can be used by many as a cathartic escape from that reality. There's countless issues which exist irl and it would be impossible not to notice how a game's themes are derived from a writer's real life experiences and accumulated knowledge. As Illydth mentioned, a ton of Viconia's story was discussing the prejudice she faced and there are many more examples just like this. The problem lies in how it was poorly written; it doesn't really sound like it was tailored to be uttered by someone in the Baldur's Gate series. It sounds like a poorly written fan-mod.:"'different' kind of half-orc" and "I believe this discussion is over" sound incredibly puerile, sanctimonious, and valley-girl-esque. I apologize for not having the greatest lexicon, or I'd write better descriptions of those phrases. But the point is, they just sound wrong.

    I think people are so upset not just because it's poorly written content, but more importantly it's that fact coupled with slightly immersion-breaking and lore-breaking themes (half-orcs aren't really discriminated against, as seen in BG1 and BG2). It's the combination which makes it leave a bad taste in one's mouth.
    FinnTheHumanYann1989Quartz
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
    Moradinjjstraka34KilivitzKrotos
  • PelmaleonPelmaleon Member Posts: 14
    edited April 2016
    "Women have made advances in equality and empowerment, so the game reflects that (show me a game that still writes women as meek "Marilyn Monroes")."

    Safana isn't (and wasn't) meek. She's far from it - she has a str score of 13 and experienced in combat from her travels as a pirate. She could slaughter an entire village of male peasants by herself.
    MoradinXzarQuartz
  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    "If you truly expect me to indulge your prejudice..."

    This sort of modern phrase especially the loaded word "prejudice" is exactly the kind of thing you would to expect to be uttered by an irate student in a debate with some conservative student in a free speech zone at a liberal university.

    This does NOT belong in Balsdurs gate because it does not fit the genre - likewise I hated the surfer dude characters in SOE and BG2 enhanced. I would hate a character quoting old testament law to me as well. I have read every lame pulp DRizzit book RA Salvatore penned. And I do not like his late preachy deep thought prologues with "what is god" or "how am I to judge what is morally right" RA Salvatore seems to caught the relativistic bug that is so popular in the well past post-Christian West. That is not the point- yes Vicy my ebon lass is hated and almost burnt for her ethnic race - but it is all made nice and middle ages like with absolute witch burning Crusader-kill-everyone-hate. That is good hate that meshes with the bloody DnD where races attempt to kill each other as their patron gods do. I never once in BG one got some idea I was defending Viccona in a sensitive thoughtful argument- unless you call killing Flaming fist or clerics a sensitive response to race hate...

    When you throw in silly words like "expect me to indulge your prejudice" I am automatically kicked out of the game and sat in one of my stupid university classes where I had to hear out lefty Professors preach their world viewon how American culture went wrong.

    I think a better way to put it is more earthy and DnD like so the half orc should have said:

    "If you truly expect me to bow to you and crush under foot the same blood that I have under Gurmish One Eye you'd be wiser poking your own eyes out first."

    see that lame script I wrote in like 3 minutes of thinking is INGAME DnD kind of banter - it does not think you are in a tutorial to check your prejudice and destroy your thespian role play mindset.

    Anyway overall I like the game - and to be honest never I will see that chat bubble as I hate Half-orcs. In real life I am a great fellow who defended women, children, and persons of other characteristics- I never needed any safety brief before leaving the ship to not offend local cultures who are a different race and religion than me and I don't need a game to lecture me on it either.
    WilddreddQuartzFinnTheHuman
  • TheMetaphysicianTheMetaphysician Member Posts: 76
    Osigold said:

    There are numerous things wrong with this dialogue.

    Why is the character under the impression that everyone is so prejudiced against half-orcs that they won't be able to think straight when the game has already established that half-orcs aren't as commonly discriminated against in the Sword Coast region?

    Why does the character propose to use racial prejudice as an element of his plan when he's talking to a protagonist of the same race?

    Why are the response choices Righteous Indignation, Bloodthirsty Psychopath, or Righteous Indignation? Do we really need two different ways to be righteously indignant? Why is being righteously indignant mandated for any character who doesn't want to come across as a monster? Why can't you offer to investigate the group to assuage the officer's fears that they may be spies or criminals? What about a mercenary choice for characters that are motivated more by money or operational security?

    If you take all three things together it adds up to blatant identity politics: There must be racism everywhere, it has to be portrayed as universal or overpowering, you have to have more choice in how you show off your virtue by being outraged than options for actually resolving the situation, you either think like the encounter designer or you're scum, and it's so "important" to create this little sequence that they'll customise the dialogue for player race to allow you to be even more righteously indignant, but not customise the encounter to check it for logic when the player race renders the basic strategy nonsensical.

    This is a really interesting, in-depth, sophisticated analysis of this dialogue. Something felt off about it, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I hope that even people who disagree can pause to note when something valuable, which advances the conversation, is said. I learned something from this post.

    One thing it shows is that writing good rpg dialogue is hard. You have to be able to get outside yourself and think about a lot of different role-playing options. You've convinced me that the writer failed here.

    I'm still excited to play this game. :smile:
    Quartz
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Beowulf said:

    I hate half-orcs myself too.

    On the other hand you miss his point. His point is he was looking to play an escape from the real world social issues that are so hurtful and sad in our real world society. He and I did not want to buy a game about a Fantasy Non-real-worldof-DnD and then suddenly find ourselves in a left wing social justice classroom. I do not know who or what Beam dog was thinking when they created these dialogues

    Going along this agenda we have militant aggressive women too - instead of the coy thief Marilyn Monroe of BG 1 Saphina has turned into a mean spirited threatening woman of Super Feminist who takes a prickly stance against dirty Bealoths advances. Further you have the new female Corwinn archer who is Sharteel X 10 and rebuffs my male character when he says stupid remarks to her. I want cheerful happy girls ala 1980 Conan the Barbarian like Imoen in BG1 when she was a happy girl. There really are no ladies like this in the SOE game they are all empowered Type-A-Girl-Power fighters- Whoooa Wymyn let's go do a march girlz!

    I would guess you are all under 30 or on the left side so this sort of chat is unobtrusive and agreeable to you. I for one support total and as close as society can get to anarchy as possible with still maintaining a government to enforce property rights and unite the country to destroy invaders. That also means I feel all men and women should be free to love, as they like - even if I find their choice of a spouse personally strange. It also means I think men and women and all races should be free and equal. But, it does not mean I want to give any one group more or less power or privilege.

    Beamdog really just went out of their way to be social justice warriors in this game. I would be mad if they had some priest quote the bible- which I like - too. Social justice (or bible quotes for that matter- not worried they would ever put those in though) preaching has NO PLACE IN DnD. Next expansion please keep the real world modern concerns and agendas OUT of the DnD game. If I want to hear some guy blast the left I can hear Alex Jones rant on and on. If I want to hear about how genders or non-traditional relationship people are oppressed I can watch a furry emo kid talk about how he is bullied at school for wearing dog ears on youtube too- but as a rule I do avoid those both.

    I do not want to buy a product about DnD and then get my role play thespian moments wrecked with inane modern sentiment dialogues about racism, feminism, or transgender issues!

    Please watch this and then feel better do some snaps - not clap hands it could trigger feelings- and have a time out if the violence in DnD fights makes you feel sad inside. Then go do a social justice march on some out of reality Ivy L Skool. But, don't put it in my a DnD game just to teach me your world view.

    Have you ever heard of Drizzt? He is the protagonist of the most popular fantasy novels that take place in the Forgotten Realms. All of his books have strong themes of racism and over coming peoples preconceived notions about him based on his race. To say you want to play in the Forgotten Realms to get away from this sort of thing seems telling that you don't actually know anything about the Forgotten Realms...
  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 178
    Nice, Illydth just destroyed a troll
    fire arrows !
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    But my evil half orc Fighter with an combined INT and WIS score of less than 10 is an uncultured uncivilised brute. He's not different. Where's my 'GRAH! SMASH!' option?

    srsnotsrs.
    Yann1989
  • Yann1989Yann1989 Member Posts: 92
    The devs had to bring the war into their game. Now they have it.

    As long as you don't understand why the other part doesn't agree with you, it is useless to consider yourself superior and declare that others are sexists or intolerant, because you are yourself narrow-minded and intolerant.

    Try to understand that there is more than just the inclusion of LGBT, there is also, embedded in the dialogue, an ideology that is vehicled at LGBT's expense. You don't like jokes at women's expense? This is litterally ideology at LGBT's expense. I feel sad for LGBT that didn't ask about this situation where people are using them for political reasons, and even more sad when I see so many people falling in the trap.
    bluntfeatherQuartz
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    What war are you talking about?
  • ButteredToastButteredToast Member Posts: 16
    Yann1989 said:

    The devs had to bring the war into their game. Now they have it.

    As long as you don't understand why the other part doesn't agree with you, it is useless to consider yourself superior and declare that others are sexists or intolerant, because you are yourself narrow-minded and intolerant.

    Try to understand that there is more than just the inclusion of LGBT, there is also, embedded in the dialogue, an ideology that is vehicled at LGBT's expense. You don't like jokes at women's expense? This is litterally ideology at LGBT's expense. I feel sad for LGBT that didn't ask about this situation where people are using them for political reasons, and even more sad when I see so many people falling in the trap.

    wtf are you talking about? This post literally has nothing to do with the LGBT issue specifically. If you want to (keep) discussing that, you've got about 10,000 other threads you can go troll.
  • Google_CalasadeGoogle_Calasade Member Posts: 80
    gloinunit said:

    I thought everything was being blown out of proportion in reviews and here on the forums, but then my Half-Orc main character had a strange conversation...

    imgur.com/WH7BUCr

    I'm starting to regret having purchased the collector's edition, thinking I was supporting a great team trying to revive a classic. I appreciate all that Beamdog has done updating this series, but how can this be considered acceptable writing? I'm not looking forward to seeing more of this as I progress.

    Yeah, that writing is BAD. Doesn't fit BG at all. Damn. Disappointed. The more I discover about this game, the less I like it.
    Quartz
  • gloinunitgloinunit Member Posts: 25
    I was too busy at work today to check back and reply, sorry about that. The problem I have with this dialog is that it reads like a made up story on tumblr, the kind I'm sure you've all seen screenshots of on places like reddit. Conversations between people that you know are too ridiculous to happen, because real people don't talk to each other in that way (these stories on tumble are fabricated to push an agenda). Why are my dialog options, one: get super offended and respond like an SJW, two: proclaim my intent to murder random half-orcs (I'm Neutral Good, not going to happen), or three: get offended and just end the conversation.

    Maybe I'm misreading this, but this initially made me think that they are using the Half-Orc race to mimic how the political left sees political right's views on, let's say, African-Americans (the stereotypes that they are all criminals/uncivilized). It's easy to say "that's not what the writer is doing", but can you at least admit that people might draw that connection?

    You might argue that a writer is allowed to insert all of this stuff into their work, and you might be right, but this isn't a brand new game with no history, people buying this game might expect the spirit of the original to live on, and it's just asking for controversy.

    The reason most of us are on these forums is because we loved the original games and have a fondness for the series. It's really disappointing that one writer's maligned agenda has caused a division in the community when we should be focusing on the improvements to the UI/Gameplay and the numerous bugs.
    Quartz
  • gloinunitgloinunit Member Posts: 25
    There was a question about my stats possibly influencing the conversation. Here they are:

    STR 20
    DEX 19
    CON 20
    INT 16
    WIS 11
    CHA 11
  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    I actually started to dislike parts of the RA Salvatore Drittz books- I read them all though - when he had Drizzit decide to compromise and make the DnD fantasy world grey and not black and white. He had Driizzit be like "oh no we won't kill goblin babes and moms" and "oh we will make a deal with The King Oblod and compromise". I know they would have lost in a fight as they were out numbered but that is what lawful good or even neutral good is to do when fighting Chaotic evil orcs... Orc god is CE and most dwarf gods are LG or Neutral good.

    Even then when you bring in the whole you must be this evil way and conform to the drow race - or all drow are evil as a race- I do not trust or will fight you - I think the racism or race hate was still done well in the book. Grstle McGristel the evil bounty hunter who hates Drizzit never says any kind of modern lines that you equate to a modern racist - and Dritzz never says any kind of modern sounding lefty drivel that you hear like "If you truly expect me to indulge your prejudice..." the race hate thing is a side line in the narrative of Drittzz. They do some thoughts on race and identity especially with his white elf magic mask - but I never thought of it as unrelated to the overall narrative of DnD where Dwarf hates goblin Elf hates Drow and Rust monsters love knights. Some of the dialogue is too modern too contrived and too lectureish to be overlooked.

    I am not a troll - I am trying to get a future release by Beamdog be less contrived and more old skool fantasy that caters to the older portly male who is pleased by fawning women and displeased by tired left leaning university tirades.

    I agree with Yan by taking a clear modern social slant in character chats Beamdog put them in one side of the culture war - do they really want to battle thug hip hop greats who cash in on their negative raps on gender and social issues and are emulated by unnumbered hero worshiping kids? Seriously like was said before the audience is males not females- why do you want to side with an agenda many males see as a threat? The whole point is I am not stimulated by modern sentiments in my fantasy world I want populated by cheerful chain mail female elves and some like minded stupid Barbarian male fighters. Barbarian warriors do not care about race they are equal opportunity city and village raiders.
    gloinunit
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    YupImMadBroKrotos
  • gloinunitgloinunit Member Posts: 25

    gloinunit said:

    Maybe I'm misreading this, but this initially made me think that they are using the Half-Orc race to mimic how the political left sees political right's views on, let's say, African-Americans (the stereotypes that they are all criminals/uncivilized).

    WTF are you even talking about???
    Are you disagreeing with the fact that some on the political left (liberals) paint the picture of the political right (conservatives) as white racists? The classic SJW will come up with a story where someone (usually a white male) is caught stereotyping a black person being a criminal or an Arab being a terrorist for a completely insane reason to make that person out to be a huge racist.

    An example closer to the dialog that I linked an image of would be something like, "Look at that group of black guys on the street corner, they are clearly planning to steal something from that gas station." Can you actually imagine someone saying that in real life, especially to another black person? It's idiotic.

    Here is an example of the kind of made up story people try to pass off as real.
    Quartz
  • gloinunitgloinunit Member Posts: 25
    Illydth said:


    @Beowulf All of the games are fraught with exactly what you're claiming SoD to be the only thing full of. Did you never meet Viconia? Are you simply blocking out her entire Entry dialog in BG2? There is NOTHING more politically expressive than her opening dialog when you meet her in BG2. Her ENTIRE CHARACTER...every meeting, every line, every motivation of that character is about the prejudice she experiences while on the surface.

    Did you not read the dark elf trillogy? The ENTIRE SERIES OF BOOKS, all...what? 25 of them? Is about social injustice, prejudice and the way people treat each other.

    This is the one counter-point that was made that I would like to address. I can only speak to the Viconia dialog/stories from BG1-BG2/TOB. No one is saying that racism can't be a part of a fantasy world, it adds an interesting and important element to racial interactions in a world where races are much different than the ethnic differences in the real world. How many times have I played through with an evil group and heard Korgan tell stories about mass murdering drow with Viconia a few feet away? The SoD writing style would have Viconia getting offended and telling Korgan to check his privilege while constantly reminding the group how bigoted they all are. This Viconia would have been seen as weak and players wouldn't pick her up as a companion. Instead, she responds in a way that shows her strength, and she became a character I love to have in my group because of her interesting personality.

    I feel like I explained this poorly, but it should get my point across.
    Quartz
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • UlbUlb Member Posts: 295
    Wow..

    I guess I have to thank OP for helping me form my opinion on the issue.

    Having not yet played SoD myself I was was kind of on the fence about the whole thing.
    Some comments made it sound as if the writing really was bad and preachy.

    If this is an example of the “SWJ agenda” that's being “shoved down our throats” the whole issue is beyond ridicules.

    The writing is fine.
    YupImMadBroMythagoKrotos
  • gloinunitgloinunit Member Posts: 25

    gloinunit said:

    gloinunit said:

    Maybe I'm misreading this, but this initially made me think that they are using the Half-Orc race to mimic how the political left sees political right's views on, let's say, African-Americans (the stereotypes that they are all criminals/uncivilized).

    WTF are you even talking about???
    Are you disagreeing with the fact that some on the political left (liberals) paint the picture of the political right (conservatives) as white racists? The classic SJW will come up with a story where someone (usually a white male) is caught stereotyping a black person being a criminal or an Arab being a terrorist for a completely insane reason to make that person out to be a huge racist.
    I'm saying, how do you get all of that from a conversation about half-orcs in Faerun?? You're imagining stuff that isn't there, man!
    I understand that people won't see it, but I can't stop my brain from making the connection between something in game and something negative in real life. I know other people will see it too, and the thing is, the writer has the power to make it so that no one ever draws a connection like this.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,819
    Ulb said:

    Wow..

    I guess I have to thank OP for helping me form my opinion on the issue.

    Having not yet played SoD myself I was was kind of on the fence about the whole thing.
    Some comments made it sound as if the writing really was bad and preachy.

    If this is an example of the “SWJ agenda” that's being “shoved down our throats” the whole issue is beyond ridicules.

    The writing is fine.

    Amen to that. I think, if those whiners present all dialogues that they find insulting here, on the forums, they would just embarass themselves. The writing's fine and I don't find Minsc's one-liner insulting at all either. Maybe it's not neccesary, but removing it would be like yielding to all this hate and vitriol. I say big NO to that.
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