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Writing is hard

Writing is hard. I have a degree in creative writing (which makes me qualified to work at restaurants all over the country!), and teach it to high school kids for a living. What I tell them is that the most important tool in a writer's kit is fearlessness. Writing is a part of someone, out there, for everyone to see. It is deeply personal, but also embarrassingly public when you do it for a living. It takes grit. If you falter, doubt yourself for second, and you do it for living, you might not get paid. You have to be tough.

I personally think Amber and Andrew have done a great job. Yeah, there's some sloppiness, but most of it feels genuine, and taps into that BG vibe (which, btw, has some sloppy writing all its own). There are legitimate criticisms here, but many of them are, the most part, overblown and full of vitriol, and, ironically, done with 0 grammar or punctuation.

Whether you agree with what they've written or not, like their style or not, join me in saying thank you to our Beambards. Who here could actually say they could take a name as powerful, as well loved as BG and do even a tenth of what they've done with it? It really is a Herculean task, and they've handled it with aplomb.
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Comments

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Making changes to Safana and Jaheira was bad. People love those characters despite their flaws. Having Minsc bash a (shitty) community was wrong. He is the one character in BG that would never do that.

    Everything else is pretty damn good.
    Grimo88Kitteh_On_A_Cloud
  • KaliestoKaliesto Member Posts: 282
    edited April 2016
    I'm not very happy with Amber right now...I just found out the truth in a nichegamer article concerning her writing. I thought it was just that one issue overblown, but there was multiple issues I thought were pretty offensive that really should not be in a FR game.
    atakdogCoffeethrallCamus34
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Grimo88 said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Making changes to Safana and Jaheira was bad. People love those characters despite their flaws. Having Minsc bash a (shitty) community was wrong. He is the one character in BG that would never do that.

    Everything else is pretty damn good.

    Agreed on the Minsc thing. Thanks for your positive talk, and I don't want to derail the thread, but, I've played through twice now with Jaheira and Safana, and... they're exactly the same. Safana manages to make a reference to sex pretty much every second line. Jaheira is still bossy and commanding. I think what Amber said in that interview was actually unrepresentative her own writing. Jaheira and Safana are still well in character, they haven't changed at all.

    Not just that, but what was Safana's character in the first place? She had like, three lines in the original? If anything, with the work Amber has done on her, she's the Bill Finger to Bioware's Bob Kane (OBSCURE BATMAN HISTORIOGRAPHY REFERENCE).
    Keep in mind that both Safana and Jaheira are in BG2, as well. It is important that Dragonspear doesn't add anything that contradicts the characters further on. Ripple effects, and all that.
    Iakus
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191
    Kaliesto said:

    I'm not very happy with Amber right now...I just found out the truth in a nichegamer article concerning her writing. I thought it was just that one issue overblown, but there was multiple issues I thought were pretty offensive that really should not be in a FR game.

    Can I suggest playing it for yourself? Trusting your own tastes, rather than the words of an article which, with a title like the one on NicheGamer, is obviously biased?
    JuliusBorisovNonnahswriterillathidBladeDancer
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191
    Rawgrim said:

    Grimo88 said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Making changes to Safana and Jaheira was bad. People love those characters despite their flaws. Having Minsc bash a (shitty) community was wrong. He is the one character in BG that would never do that.

    Everything else is pretty damn good.

    Agreed on the Minsc thing. Thanks for your positive talk, and I don't want to derail the thread, but, I've played through twice now with Jaheira and Safana, and... they're exactly the same. Safana manages to make a reference to sex pretty much every second line. Jaheira is still bossy and commanding. I think what Amber said in that interview was actually unrepresentative her own writing. Jaheira and Safana are still well in character, they haven't changed at all.

    Not just that, but what was Safana's character in the first place? She had like, three lines in the original? If anything, with the work Amber has done on her, she's the Bill Finger to Bioware's Bob Kane (OBSCURE BATMAN HISTORIOGRAPHY REFERENCE).
    Keep in mind that both Safana and Jaheira are in BG2, as well. It is important that Dragonspear doesn't add anything that contradicts the characters further on. Ripple effects, and all that.
    Agreed. But again, the writing is consistent in this regard. The Coran/Safana interaction they set up in the Elfsong Tabard mirrors their (very small) cameo encounter in BG2 quite well.
    NonnahswriterillathidJarrakul
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    I found Safana to be rather different in the expansion, really. She seemed more into sarcasm now than manipulation. Felt like a different character to me.
    helmo1977
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191
    Rawgrim said:

    I found Safana to be rather different in the expansion, really. She seemed more into sarcasm now than manipulation. Felt like a different character to me.

    Without spoiling, did you pursue a romantic fling with her? Her true manipulative colours comes out if you do, especially at the end, which lines up perfectly with her capricious appearance in BG2
    JuliusBorisovNonnahswriterillathid
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    No I didn't. I didn't finish the whole thing either. I got fed up with all the bugs. I decided to pause playing it and wait for a patch. But after I read that interview with Scott, where she downgrades Jaheira (arguably the best written companion in the series) to a nagging wife, I am kind of losing interest in the whole thing. And the preachy bits in the game is something that took me out of my immersion. I play games to disconect from real world issues (gamergate crap included).
    UlbKitteh_On_A_Cloud
  • Grimo88Grimo88 Member Posts: 191
    Rawgrim said:

    No I didn't. I didn't finish the whole thing either. I got fed up with all the bugs. I decided to pause playing it and wait for a patch. But after I read that interview with Scott, where she downgrades Jaheira (arguably the best written companion in the series) to a nagging wife, I am kind of losing interest in the whole thing. And the preachy bits in the game is something that took me out of my immersion. I play games to disconect from real world issues (gamergate crap included).

    Again, don't take that article's word as gospel. Make the decision for yourself. Wait til it's patched, and play with both characters to the conclusion. I think you'll find it is really taken out of context, and that there isn't anything to worry about.
    sparkleavJuliusBorisovNonnahswriterVargnatt
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    I don't take it as gospel. But I felt the game had too many "modern" real world issues being refferenced in it. It just takes me out of the game. The escapism of the game takes a hit. I dunno. It didn't feel like BG. The new characters that got added in the EE editions didn't have that problem. They fit perfectly. This feels off.
    sarevok57Kitteh_On_A_Cloud
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    joluv said:

    Just for fun, here's an actual quote from the Niche Gamer article @Rawgrim references:

    "your average bitter female 30-something social keyboard warrior dines with cats and spends every night dampening their iPhone with tears shed while swiping through Tinder profiles"

    I think you need to re-read my posts. I never referenced any nicegamer article at all. Another poster did that. I haven't even read it. I only mentioned the interview with Amber Scott where she describes Jaheira as a "nagging wife".

    Stop putting words into my mouth, please.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @Rawgrim: My mistake. Sorry about that.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    joluv said:

    @Rawgrim: My mistake. Sorry about that.

    It is perfectly ok. Mistakes happen. I make plenty myself.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    I read the article on Kotaku when it first came out and I'll admit, it made me think about it for the first time. I never really thought of Safana or Jaheira as being sexist tropes. Once I took a second to think about it I realized that they most certainly are. Then I thought to myself, so what? They are charming and humorous tropes. I think Amber came to the same conclusion. Those tropes exist for both men and women throughout Baldur's Gate.

    She was asked how she intended to improve upon the previous games and she stated that she wanted to add more depth to those characters. More layers than just a single 1 dimensional trope. I would have done the same thing if it were my job to improve those characters. She didn't take out the character traits that defined them previously, she simply added more to the characters overall. She respected the original work and pushed it further.

    People seem to jump to the conclusion that the characters were destroyed and that she was calling the previous developers sexist. It's like a bunch of insecure man children that are terrified that a woman is in control of something they like. It's the fear that she has an agenda of her own and doesn't care about the game. This is ignorance on a high level. Amber has more experience with D&D and writing then any of these loud complainers have. She didn't join Beamdog as a way to push her agenda. She did her job.

    Like all dev teams, Beamdog is made up of people that all have different beliefs and views. Some of them are probably offensive to others but that is life. Statues, paintings, books, films, and yes...games all have content that can offend others. It has been this way forever. If every artist conformed to a standard then all art would be the same and very boring.

    I understand the annoyance with PC culture. There is a point where it intrudes on things. If every game has to have a perfectly balanced group of races, sexual orientations and beliefs it starts to feel forced and obtrusive. I think anyone creating a world and a story would like as much variety and complexity as possible. It actually makes the amount of content and realism flow with more ease. It shouldn't be a forced focus issue though. How these things are implemented will be criticized no matter how well it's written but it should be up to the writer in the end. If Amber and Andrew decided to make an all male cast with no romances then that is what they should do. I would hope that they would have a good reason for doing it this way but it's a creation that they are making. Complaining about the variety of characters and blaming it on the writing is a cheap cop out in my opinion. I don't get upset when an ogre says "Get out of the way Pinks" I don't complain that it's not an Oscar worthy line nor does anyone need to point out that ogres are stereotypically stupid. Nobody needs to get upset about stereotypes either. See how easy it is to complain? I just move on and ignore the bits I don't like and enjoy the ones I do. If the game isn't delivering more positive than negative then I stop playing and move on to other games. No use starting a riot.

    I do think poking fun at gamersgate was in poor taste from a logical standpoint because a large portion of your audience is on one side or the other and poking a stick at the audience you are trying to please and make money off of is risky. It's ok that members of the dev team feel one way or the other and if they want to let their opinions be known that is cool. They have the right to put it in the game but just like everything else I discussed, as an artist you have to consider your audience and the overarching point of the art. Gamersgate had nothing to do with SOD as a game and that easter egg was obviously going to polarize the two camps involved with gamersgate. It's the development teams right to put it in the game but the result is not good for the game's sales or the community. As writers that is something that needs to be considered as well. It's a hot button topic at the moment which increases the risk.

    I would like to state that I can take a joke and personally am not offended by anything in the game that I have heard complaints about. From what I have seen and from what I have heard from others, the game is well written and a seamless continuation of the original Baldur's Gate. I have not experienced the bulk of SOD because of LOD mode needing a fix but I would like to say thanks anyway. This is a very rare and special game and Beamdog has done something very rare and special by supporting the game, improving the engine, and adding optional content.

    Actually I am a published d&d writer myself. So I have plenty experience. I can complain!!!

    You make some valid points, though. By all means. Do you think she fleshed out all the stereotypical male characters from BG1, though? She did seem very focused on the females in her interview.
    Camus34
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 307
    Rawgrim said:

    joluv said:

    Just for fun, here's an actual quote from the Niche Gamer article @Rawgrim references:

    "your average bitter female 30-something social keyboard warrior dines with cats and spends every night dampening their iPhone with tears shed while swiping through Tinder profiles"

    I think you need to re-read my posts. I never referenced any nicegamer article at all. Another poster did that. I haven't even read it. I only mentioned the interview with Amber Scott where she describes Jaheira as a "nagging wife".

    Stop putting words into my mouth, please.
    I think Amber is referring to Jaheiras personality from Baldur's Gate 1. The sequel already developed her character and fleshed it out. I think SOD wanted to bring her to that level. Expanding past the angry nag trope. I mean that was basically her only thing in BG1 before BG2 expanded her. I think the answer amber made was poorly worded though.
    sparkleavValamirCleaverNonnahswriteramyae
  • HeavylineHeavyline Member Posts: 108
    Writing stuff is hard, I agree. Especially if you do it for living, I can't even imagine the struggle. But here's the thing they should've considered before making "Siege of Dragonspear"...

    Write your OWN stories.

    Adding a new chapter to the Bhaalspawn saga that was originally not your work to begin with is going to make people have high expectations. I finally understand the old Star Wars fans even more after Phantom Menace was released. I refused to play Siege of Dragonspear more, because I didn't want to destroy my imagination entirely in what happened between the events of Sarevok's death and being captured by Jon Irenicus.

    ...and the changes for existing characters didn't do them any justice. Imagine if someone made a fan fiction of "Game of Thrones" and wanted to include King Joffery and Ramsay Bolton, but found these characters too evil for their liking and wanted to change their personalities a 'little'.

    New ideas, stories, characters are always welcome. Forgotten Realms is a massive world with lots of stories untold. Bhaalspawn saga was already done.
    atakdogAbelsarevok57Kitteh_On_A_Cloud
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited April 2016
    Rawgrim, I should have said "most" complainers lol. She did to J&K since they go hand in hand so yes to an extent. As I said though I have not played through the game past the city of BG because of technical issues. I am pretty sure Minsc is pretty one dimensional still but he is very popular for the way that he is and his head is broken so his personality doesn't beg for a large deep extension. I can't claim that she wasn't one sided in her approach though and if she was then she should probably take the criticism and improve her own game with it.

    BTW, Heavyline I do understand and respect where you are coming from. I don't see anything wrong with voicing your opinion if you dislike something. How else will things improve? Still, there is a large difference between your honest criticism and the mindless rampage that hit the forum this week. Some criticism is based off of intolerance and hate for others and I don't think it's fair to the game or the people that made it but that's my opinion.
    Post edited by the_sextein on
    RawgrimsparkleavValamirCleaver
  • AutocratAutocrat Member Posts: 68
    Writing is hard, I agree. And most of what I've seen in Siege is pretty damn good for a video game. I just wish Minsc's GG line could be removed. It's in poor taste, and the sooner it's removed, the sooner this will all blow over.
    Iakus
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Autocrat said:

    Writing is hard, I agree. And most of what I've seen in Siege is pretty damn good for a video game. I just wish Minsc's GG line could be removed. It's in poor taste, and the sooner it's removed, the sooner this will all blow over.

    That line just opened up a wound that had somewhat begun to heal. From a character's standpoint they kind of gave the line to the only character that wouldn't say it. Minsc is a gentle giant. Not a bad bone in his body. Having Jaheira say it would actually fit (even if it is in poor taste).
    AutocratIakusVargnatt
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Thank you to our friends the writers for their work in Siege of Dragonspear. I enjoyed many chuckles.
    Nonnahswriterlolien
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Heavyline said:

    Writing stuff is hard, I agree. Especially if you do it for living, I can't even imagine the struggle. But here's the thing they should've considered before making "Siege of Dragonspear"...

    Write your OWN stories.

    Adding a new chapter to the Bhaalspawn saga that was originally not your work to begin with is going to make people have high expectations. I finally understand the old Star Wars fans even more after Phantom Menace was released. I refused to play Siege of Dragonspear more, because I didn't want to destroy my imagination entirely in what happened between the events of Sarevok's death and being captured by Jon Irenicus.

    ...and the changes for existing characters didn't do them any justice. Imagine if someone made a fan fiction of "Game of Thrones" and wanted to include King Joffery and Ramsay Bolton, but found these characters too evil for their liking and wanted to change their personalities a 'little'.

    New ideas, stories, characters are always welcome. Forgotten Realms is a massive world with lots of stories untold. Bhaalspawn saga was already done.

    Writing your own stuff is actually easier, I find. You have full creative freedom and only have to abide by your own rules. When writing in a world\setting created by others, you do get your hands tied quite a bit. It is like this: When you are a kid you want your own toys to play with. Playing with a friend's toys isn't the same.
    AndrewFoleyHeavylineVargnattKitteh_On_A_Cloud
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Quite right. Have a look at both sides first. Then make up your own mind. Best way to go about things.
    Doubledimassparkleav
  • PezPez Member Posts: 19
    Yep. It is. The fact that you can type words doesn't make you a writer though. SoD is a good example of that.
    Coffeethrall
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