Just finished the game. Some thoughts divided per subject.
- Story - I feel the very first dungeon is a bit rushed. Not much was explained how we got from the Undercity to here although I understand the larger framework. It picked up for me after that, getting into the city, seeing it vibrant with people and very small subquests while picking up your party. The campaign trail was nice, although not being able to backtrack is a pity sometimes. Although it is rather linear, I still felt enough freedom to explore all the areas sufficiently enough. Some annoyances with not being to do anything about Hephernaan's deceit during multiple occasions. The end story with Belhifet was a bit over the top but fair enough. All in all, a decent enough story. Lot of railroading going on, but as it is to bridge a small period between BG1 and BG2 understandable. Can't really compare it to those games.
- Writing - Overall decent enough. As many people said already sometimes good, sometimes great, sometimes mediocre, sometimes bad. Some conversations had really weird responses where it wasn't inmediately clear what response related to what kind of character. The good/neutral/bad response selection choices worok for me personally (paladin goody two-shoes) but sometimes it was a bit forced.
- Voices - Ah, Minsc. How glorious to hear him again, including new awesome lines (here comes 300 pounds of JUSTICE! ). David Warner was speaking a bit too slow to my taste (especially in the dialogue with Hephernaan) but nonetheless great to hear again, same goes for Kevin Michael Richardson. Corwin is ok, Glint is a very nice addition. Haven't played with Voghiln and M'Khiin yet, nor oldies like Jaheira and Khalid.
- New NPCs - As said already, I only took Corwin and Glint along. The romance with Corwin (playing a female) went way too quick, and before I knew it I apparently stopped it and haven't had a talk anymore since then (this was in either the first or the second chapter). Glint was fun as a character.
- Art - Some brilliant new areas, especially indoors/in caves etc. Beautiful artwork. Have to say that the first area where you arrive after the city (first time you meet all the camp-people), the ground looked ugly as hell. Got used to it but still won't win any prizes. Loved the Underground River map. The world map, and especially the icons of the areas looked absolutely abysmal, and I wondered whether there is something wrong with my settings/computer or if it truly meant like this (see attachment).
- Game - I liked the exploring. All kinds of new things to find out. Had a great laugh at Baeloth's Black Pit. Thoroughly enjoyed the Underground River part with loads of things to do. Felt a bit like the Underdark map in BG2. Interesting quests, interesting things to do. Liked some of the foreshadowing scenes, although the dream sequences with the Slayer felt a bit underwhelming and unnecessary. I wished Kanaglym had some more areas to explore, liked the idea but it was just 1 map (although with a great fight).
- Bugs - Only experienced 2 crashes to desktop, and one part where I couldn't do anything anymore due to clicking sleep when heading into a cut-scene. Some minor issues (Coldheart bugged for instance the first time). Have been playing on Core Rules except the last part which was switched to Story Mode (somehow, someway) and kept it on it until the end (switched right before heading into Avernus) so no LoB issues for me. That is not to say that once again the deadline said proved to be detrimental to the overall status of the game. The Road to v2.0 was very short, and the concerns expressed at the beginning that it was too little time to get everything in good working conditions proved true.
- Overall experience - Great to get a new adventure in BG-land. I think SoD in itself is a decent enough bridge between BG1 and BG2. Nothing brilliant but enough to enjoy once (or twice, or thrice). New items, new art, new voices, new areas. I feel that there is room for expanding on multiple fronts to make it even more enjoyable but that is probably something for modders. Well worth the 20 bucks to get this. Although I'm not planning on inmediately doing another run, there are still some things that I would love to explore some more. All in all, good job Beamdog. Looking forward to new adventures!
None of the below opinion had anything to do with the 2 so-called "political" issues (that seemed to me to be making Mt. Everest out of Death Valley) that has been incinerating the web for the past week and a half, those 2 "issues" did not bother me in the least.
I just finished SoD yesterday; I won't go into spoiler details, but I probably wouldn't want to play in any campaign that the Beamdog writers were running because they're railroading DMs. There is no way to avoid the ending, all player agency is removed, you're forced into pure DM fiat. Nor are you given a possibility to change or otherwise directly interact with the situation after the fact because the game ends very shortly after you regain full control over CHARNAME. I even reloaded a previous save to see if it was possible to use the command console to avoid the situation, no matter what you do the same end result still happens.
Here's the sequence: 1.) Victorious Final Battle 2.)Diabolus ex Machina 3.) Extremely limited control of CHARNAME 4.) Full control of CHARNAME followed seconds later by 5.) Ending Cinematic http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina
No, I'm not exaggerating, it's that abrupt. It would have been a much better game if it had just abruptly ended right after the final battle.
+ new areas are mostly pretty good + fights are also pretty good + the overall plot arc is quite interesting - i didn't like the final reveal - poor roleplaying choices, especially dialogue choices - horrible railroading - sometimes the way areas are constructed and connected make no sense
No, I'm not exaggerating, it's that abrupt. It would have been a much better game if it had just abruptly ended right after the final battle.
That part didn't bother me, since I assumed that Irenicus abducting charname + the canon NPCs was going to happen (though where was Khalid?).
I enjoyed the game a great deal overall, but the ending did seem rushed.
It's hard to understand how, after charname is celebrated following the "final" battle for being the savior of the Sword Coast, charname is immediately assumed to have murdered Skie.
I do understand the complaints made by the OP, but honestly, it would be almost impossible to write an interlude between BG and BG2 that would be both meaningful and wouldn't break continuity. Ok, so there's no mention in BG2 of the adventures charname had in SoD - what could Beamdog have done differently? Should they have written a 25-30 hour game in which nothing of note happened?
I guess the game could have been about how charname relaxed in Baldur's Gate after killing Sarevok? Maybe charname took a victory tour down to Nashkel with stops at the Friendly Arm and Beregost? "Hey, you remember me, right? That whole iron shortage thing? Yeah, that was me. How about a strong dwarven ale on the house?"
Suddenly I have some ideas for BG3. It's a farming simulator, using alternate 2nd Edition rules from an obscure issue of Dragon Magazine published in 1985. You want to grow corn? roll to determine whether your seed germinates, then whether your plants succumb to a fungal infection, then to determine whether a plague of insects attacks, etc. Don't get me started on the mechanics to determine the price you'll get when you try to sell.
No, I'm not exaggerating, it's that abrupt. It would have been a much better game if it had just abruptly ended right after the final battle.
That part didn't bother me, since I assumed that Irenicus abducting charname + the canon NPCs was going to happen (though where was Khalid?).
I enjoyed the game a great deal overall, but the ending did seem rushed.
It's hard to understand how, after charname is celebrated following the "final" battle for being the savior of the Sword Coast, charname is immediately assumed to have murdered Skie.
I do understand the complaints made by the OP, but honestly, it would be almost impossible to write an interlude between BG and BG2 that would be both meaningful and wouldn't break continuity. Ok, so there's no mention in BG2 of the adventures charname had in SoD - what could Beamdog have done differently? Should they have written a 25-30 hour game in which nothing of note happened?
I guess the game could have been about how charname relaxed in Baldur's Gate after killing Sarevok? Maybe charname took a victory tour down to Nashkel with stops at the Friendly Arm and Beregost? "Hey, you remember me, right? That whole iron shortage thing? Yeah, that was me. How about a strong dwarven ale on the house?"
Suddenly I have some ideas for BG3. It's a farming simulator, using alternate 2nd Edition rules from an obscure issue of Dragon Magazine published in 1985. You want to grow corn? roll to determine whether your seed germinates, then whether your plants succumb to a fungal infection, then to determine whether a plague of insects attacks, etc. Don't get me started on the mechanics to determine the price you'll get when you try to sell.
Hey Beamdog, give me a call...
As I said, the ideal solution would have been to make an alternate universe thing. Barring that, however, if it absolutely had to be an interlude between BG1 and BG2, your choices are essentially to break continuity, to have some kind of memory erasure thing happen, or to make it deal with the continuing fallout of Sarevok so that it is technically sort of still referenced in the greater scheme that is the references to Sarevok in BG2. There are obvious problems with all of those, which leads to the ultimate problem here: the concept just doesn't easily work. But at the very least, Beamdog could definitely have written a story that wasn't public. Having massive armies and throngs of people through Baldur's Gate cheer or curse your name and fighting devil lords in Hell is the kind of thing people in Amn would mention. It's plausible that they wouldn't know about you if five-hundred years passed between games, but barring that, it's not.
No one in BG2 talks about you're defeating Sarevok either. And he was going to start a war with Amn, the very nation you are in. In fact no one seems to have heard of you (given your reputation reset). If no comments on that, I see no reason why anyone would comment on anything else you've down before coming to Amn.
Interesting perspective, even if I almost feel that for you, end cinematics can do but wrong, because per default we are there to see them, not partake.
My problem has to do with what happened between the end of the final fight with the Big Bad and the ending cinematic, not the ending cinematic in and of itself.
Also, if you riddled the door-keeper devil (Thrix) - did he not tell you this upfront?
I didn't even give the devil a chance to speak, as soon as the graphic for the gate appeared I positioned my 2 melee tanks on opposite sides of the gate, positioned my 4 missile artillery spread out a distance away, then force attacked the devil as soon as its selection circle appeared and it immediately erupted into chunks. I played as a Cavalier, I'm not even going to give a devil a chance to tempt me.
So thrash as the hero might, being pushed to your inevitable fate was to me pretty good storytelling!
I see it as lazy storytelling, especially in an interactive medium. CHARNAME is forced into frame-up, conga line of humiliation, banishment, capture. All player agency is removed because nothing CHARNAME is allowed to do will meaningfully interact, mitigate or otherwise change the effective outcome of banishment. There's not even a dialogue choice along the lines of, "I need to clear my name," before the ending cinematic.
Saw you post this in another thread too. I thought the trial sequence worked well. You could argue for your innocence or not, based on what you did in SoD.
Nothing that CHARNAME is allowed to do meaningfully interacts, mitigates or otherwise changes the effective outcome of banishment. It does come off as a blatant sequel hook, but does Beamdog even have any remote plans for an additional interquel chronologically between CHARNAME's banishment and the party's capture in the ending cinematic???...
As for DM Fiat, that makes sense to me. You had to end SoD in a particular state or else the start of BG2 doesn't make sense. Really how else could you do it?
Shortly after returning to Baldur's Gate and celebrating the defeat of the Big Bad a messenger delivers a secret missive from a noble (whom could be Irenicus in disguise and not necessarily a sincere message from an actual noble) in Athkatla seeking CHARNAME's help posthaste with a greatly implied, but not outrightly stated problem. The utmost discretion is requested of CHARNAME in regards to CHARNAME's acknowledgement of the message and CHARNAME's travel in response to the missive. With this the same end result of CHARNAME (and most likely his party of companions) leaving Baldur's Gate (with the included addition of heading in the general direction of Athkatla). With this the ending cinematic does not need to be modified in any way, shape or form despite the at least the appearance of player agency.
As I said, the ideal solution would have been to make an alternate universe thing. Barring that, however, if it absolutely had to be an interlude between BG1 and BG2, your choices are essentially to break continuity, to have some kind of memory erasure thing happen, or to make it deal with the continuing fallout of Sarevok so that it is technically sort of still referenced in the greater scheme that is the references to Sarevok in BG2. There are obvious problems with all of those, which leads to the ultimate problem here: the concept just doesn't easily work. But at the very least, Beamdog could definitely have written a story that wasn't public. Having massive armies and throngs of people through Baldur's Gate cheer or curse your name and fighting devil lords in Hell is the kind of thing people in Amn would mention. It's plausible that they wouldn't know about you if five-hundred years passed between games, but barring that, it's not.
I don't write fiction, so maybe someone who does can suggest a way to write a story about the continuing fallout from Sarevok that doesn't make the end of BG1 feel like charname has accomplished nothing. I guess the plot could have involved something mundane, or taken you out of Baldur's Gate entirely, but that's essentially Tales of the Sword Coast.
I don't write fiction, so maybe someone who does can suggest a way to write a story about the continuing fallout from Sarevok that doesn't make the end of BG1 feel like charname has accomplished nothing. I guess the plot could have involved something mundane, or taken you out of Baldur's Gate entirely, but that's essentially Tales of the Sword Coast.
You could have the section where you fight Sarevok's female minion at the beginning of the game (who was never mentioned in the actual BG1) and stretch it out to the entire game, or have it be about running down Sarevok's escaping lieutenants like Angelo and the other one whose name I can't remember. I don't think that it would be very exciting, however, which is kind of my point: the concept of an interquel for this series is automatically flawed.
I don't think that it would be very exciting, however, which is kind of my point: the concept of an interquel for this series is automatically flawed.
I think you have a larger problem with this game than a break in continuity
But I've been thinking about your point further, and it seems to me that the game could have been written with a less "epic" story. The issue is how you get the gang back together, so to speak. If the story is about something small scale - say, a personal adventure with the same sort of stakes as Tales of the Sword Coast - how do you rationalize all of the NPCs jumping aboard? Imoen? sure. Maybe I'm looking at it too narrowly, but what motivates any of the other NPCs to join you on something that's really no more than a loot-grab?
I was thinking that maybe the plot could revolve around JI hunting you down, but I can't see enjoying a game where I know I can't win in any sense, can you? I don't think JI could be more involved in the plot than he already was. There has to be another antagonist, even if you know what happens at the end of the day, you at least have a goal to work towards in the short term.
So what about a limited-scope mystery, where something is stolen from you, and you need to track it down? Maybe it's something that's meaningful to other NPCs as well? Maybe it's Imoen? There, at least, is a hook for some of the NPCs to join you...
So the game starts with Imoen disappearing and you having one of your dreams, in which a hooded figure is taunting you to come after her. You recruit/run into other NPCs and they join you in searching for Imoen or in the case of the evil NPCs have some selfish/dastardly/personal reason to accompany you regardless of how they feel about Imoen. You could set the game anywhere, really. Heck, you could even have the ultimate showdown in Dragonspear Castle - the location doesn't really matter, as long as the scope of the danger is limited to your character, Imoen, and the NPCs, as opposed to the Sword Coast as a whole.
You could also avoid some of the issues with linearity in this way, because you could write it (at least on the surface) so that the PC is chasing multiple clues at the same time, which can be resolved in any order. That even plays into the limited nature of the experience available in the game, since you wouldn't have to worry about balancing encounters all that much if you know the PC/NPCs are all going to be within a couple of levels for every encounter...
Maybe that still doesn't solve the issue that, at the end of the day, you (the human playing the game) know who has Imoen, and you know the end result is going to be you ending up in a dungeon with her and a few other NPCs. Maybe that still makes the whole thing seem pointless, but I'm not so sure. It could make JI seem more powerful and near-omniscient if you get it right, and it could certainly give his overall machinations more depth. After all, under this scenario, he's directly testing you - putting obstacles in your path (and maybe there's still another Bhaalspawn or two he's also testing) rather than taking advantage of some random crusade and observing you in the process.
I can see a denouement to the story where you finally "rescue" Imoen: you've fought a battle against overwhelming odds, and appear to have either killed JI or caused him to flee. Imoen seems relieved to see you, and she says, wearily, "lets get out of here!" But then she sees something in the shadows, and she cries out, (something like, "NO, NO, NOT AGAIN") and then you fade to black/cinematic --> credits.
Interesting topic, Burpcycle, even if my blathering isn't...
I don't think that it would be very exciting, however, which is kind of my point: the concept of an interquel for this series is automatically flawed.
I think you have a larger problem with this game than a break in continuity
But I've been thinking about your point further, and it seems to me that the game could have been written with a less "epic" story. The issue is how you get the gang back together, so to speak. If the story is about something small scale - say, a personal adventure with the same sort of stakes as Tales of the Sword Coast - how do you rationalize all of the NPCs jumping aboard? Imoen? sure. Maybe I'm looking at it too narrowly, but what motivates any of the other NPCs to join you on something that's really no more than a loot-grab?
A less epic story could have worked, but I'm sure that's not what they wanted to make. And honestly, you could still fit the returning NPCs in for that. Imoen would come along, Edwin has nothing better to do, Safana would want to do anything that involves money, and Minsc/Dynaheir and Jaheira/Khalid just need some kind of motivation like "this would ultimately be good for people" to get involved. Only Viconia is a problem.
I'm not sure Beamdog really got what made BG1 and BG2 so magical. It wasn't the linear plot (both of which were still better than SoD's). It was that you could just bugger off and do a bunch of sidequests or explore a forest of trolls or whatever, and you could do it on your own time.
You could NOT really "bugger off" to do sidequests in ToB though, which is more what SoD is comparable to. Why people keep comparing full-blown 60+ hour games to a 15+ hour expansion is beyond me.
Comments
- Story -
I feel the very first dungeon is a bit rushed. Not much was explained how we got from the Undercity to here although I understand the larger framework. It picked up for me after that, getting into the city, seeing it vibrant with people and very small subquests while picking up your party. The campaign trail was nice, although not being able to backtrack is a pity sometimes. Although it is rather linear, I still felt enough freedom to explore all the areas sufficiently enough. Some annoyances with not being to do anything about Hephernaan's deceit during multiple occasions. The end story with Belhifet was a bit over the top but fair enough. All in all, a decent enough story. Lot of railroading going on, but as it is to bridge a small period between BG1 and BG2 understandable. Can't really compare it to those games.
- Writing -
Overall decent enough. As many people said already sometimes good, sometimes great, sometimes mediocre, sometimes bad. Some conversations had really weird responses where it wasn't inmediately clear what response related to what kind of character. The good/neutral/bad response selection choices worok for me personally (paladin goody two-shoes) but sometimes it was a bit forced.
- Voices -
Ah, Minsc. How glorious to hear him again, including new awesome lines (here comes 300 pounds of JUSTICE!
- New NPCs -
As said already, I only took Corwin and Glint along. The romance with Corwin (playing a female) went way too quick, and before I knew it I apparently stopped it and haven't had a talk anymore since then (this was in either the first or the second chapter). Glint was fun as a character.
- Art -
Some brilliant new areas, especially indoors/in caves etc. Beautiful artwork. Have to say that the first area where you arrive after the city (first time you meet all the camp-people), the ground looked ugly as hell. Got used to it but still won't win any prizes. Loved the Underground River map. The world map, and especially the icons of the areas looked absolutely abysmal, and I wondered whether there is something wrong with my settings/computer or if it truly meant like this (see attachment).
- Game -
I liked the exploring. All kinds of new things to find out. Had a great laugh at Baeloth's Black Pit. Thoroughly enjoyed the Underground River part with loads of things to do. Felt a bit like the Underdark map in BG2. Interesting quests, interesting things to do. Liked some of the foreshadowing scenes, although the dream sequences with the Slayer felt a bit underwhelming and unnecessary. I wished Kanaglym had some more areas to explore, liked the idea but it was just 1 map (although with a great fight).
- Bugs -
Only experienced 2 crashes to desktop, and one part where I couldn't do anything anymore due to clicking sleep when heading into a cut-scene. Some minor issues (Coldheart bugged for instance the first time). Have been playing on Core Rules except the last part which was switched to Story Mode (somehow, someway) and kept it on it until the end (switched right before heading into Avernus) so no LoB issues for me. That is not to say that once again the deadline said proved to be detrimental to the overall status of the game. The Road to v2.0 was very short, and the concerns expressed at the beginning that it was too little time to get everything in good working conditions proved true.
- Overall experience -
Great to get a new adventure in BG-land. I think SoD in itself is a decent enough bridge between BG1 and BG2. Nothing brilliant but enough to enjoy once (or twice, or thrice). New items, new art, new voices, new areas. I feel that there is room for expanding on multiple fronts to make it even more enjoyable but that is probably something for modders. Well worth the 20 bucks to get this. Although I'm not planning on inmediately doing another run, there are still some things that I would love to explore some more. All in all, good job Beamdog. Looking forward to new adventures!
I just finished SoD yesterday; I won't go into spoiler details, but I probably wouldn't want to play in any campaign that the Beamdog writers were running because they're railroading DMs. There is no way to avoid the ending, all player agency is removed, you're forced into pure DM fiat. Nor are you given a possibility to change or otherwise directly interact with the situation after the fact because the game ends very shortly after you regain full control over CHARNAME. I even reloaded a previous save to see if it was possible to use the command console to avoid the situation, no matter what you do the same end result still happens.
Here's the sequence: 1.) Victorious Final Battle 2.)Diabolus ex Machina 3.) Extremely limited control of CHARNAME 4.) Full control of CHARNAME followed seconds later by 5.) Ending Cinematic
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina
No, I'm not exaggerating, it's that abrupt. It would have been a much better game if it had just abruptly ended right after the final battle.
+ new areas are mostly pretty good
+ fights are also pretty good
+ the overall plot arc is quite interesting
- i didn't like the final reveal
- poor roleplaying choices, especially dialogue choices
- horrible railroading
- sometimes the way areas are constructed and connected make no sense
I enjoyed the game a great deal overall, but the ending did seem rushed.
I do understand the complaints made by the OP, but honestly, it would be almost impossible to write an interlude between BG and BG2 that would be both meaningful and wouldn't break continuity. Ok, so there's no mention in BG2 of the adventures charname had in SoD - what could Beamdog have done differently? Should they have written a 25-30 hour game in which nothing of note happened?
I guess the game could have been about how charname relaxed in Baldur's Gate after killing Sarevok? Maybe charname took a victory tour down to Nashkel with stops at the Friendly Arm and Beregost? "Hey, you remember me, right? That whole iron shortage thing? Yeah, that was me. How about a strong dwarven ale on the house?"
Suddenly I have some ideas for BG3. It's a farming simulator, using alternate 2nd Edition rules from an obscure issue of Dragon Magazine published in 1985. You want to grow corn? roll to determine whether your seed germinates, then whether your plants succumb to a fungal infection, then to determine whether a plague of insects attacks, etc. Don't get me started on the mechanics to determine the price you'll get when you try to sell.
Hey Beamdog, give me a call...
I think you posted that in the wrong thread...
But I've been thinking about your point further, and it seems to me that the game could have been written with a less "epic" story. The issue is how you get the gang back together, so to speak. If the story is about something small scale - say, a personal adventure with the same sort of stakes as Tales of the Sword Coast - how do you rationalize all of the NPCs jumping aboard? Imoen? sure. Maybe I'm looking at it too narrowly, but what motivates any of the other NPCs to join you on something that's really no more than a loot-grab?
I was thinking that maybe the plot could revolve around JI hunting you down, but I can't see enjoying a game where I know I can't win in any sense, can you? I don't think JI could be more involved in the plot than he already was. There has to be another antagonist, even if you know what happens at the end of the day, you at least have a goal to work towards in the short term.
So what about a limited-scope mystery, where something is stolen from you, and you need to track it down? Maybe it's something that's meaningful to other NPCs as well? Maybe it's Imoen? There, at least, is a hook for some of the NPCs to join you...
So the game starts with Imoen disappearing and you having one of your dreams, in which a hooded figure is taunting you to come after her. You recruit/run into other NPCs and they join you in searching for Imoen or in the case of the evil NPCs have some selfish/dastardly/personal reason to accompany you regardless of how they feel about Imoen. You could set the game anywhere, really. Heck, you could even have the ultimate showdown in Dragonspear Castle - the location doesn't really matter, as long as the scope of the danger is limited to your character, Imoen, and the NPCs, as opposed to the Sword Coast as a whole.
You could also avoid some of the issues with linearity in this way, because you could write it (at least on the surface) so that the PC is chasing multiple clues at the same time, which can be resolved in any order. That even plays into the limited nature of the experience available in the game, since you wouldn't have to worry about balancing encounters all that much if you know the PC/NPCs are all going to be within a couple of levels for every encounter...
Maybe that still doesn't solve the issue that, at the end of the day, you (the human playing the game) know who has Imoen, and you know the end result is going to be you ending up in a dungeon with her and a few other NPCs. Maybe that still makes the whole thing seem pointless, but I'm not so sure. It could make JI seem more powerful and near-omniscient if you get it right, and it could certainly give his overall machinations more depth. After all, under this scenario, he's directly testing you - putting obstacles in your path (and maybe there's still another Bhaalspawn or two he's also testing) rather than taking advantage of some random crusade and observing you in the process.
I can see a denouement to the story where you finally "rescue" Imoen: you've fought a battle against overwhelming odds, and appear to have either killed JI or caused him to flee. Imoen seems relieved to see you, and she says, wearily, "lets get out of here!" But then she sees something in the shadows, and she cries out, (something like, "NO, NO, NOT AGAIN") and then you fade to black/cinematic --> credits.
Interesting topic, Burpcycle, even if my blathering isn't...