Fighter is the most versatile class. It's not about point n' click, it's about having the right weapon for the right occasion and knowing how to use the resources that are around you.
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People tend to look at the fighter as the "master of a single weapon", when in fact he is the master of ALL weapons. That's why he have the lowest penalty for being non-proficient with a weapon and gains multiple attacks despite specialization.
I quite like this concept! I never really thought about the Fighter as versatile. However, the same can be applied to other fighter-like classes, such as the Paladin or the Ranger, no?
Either way, this kind've makes me want to play as a straight Fighter, vanilla, no kit (perhaps add the true-grandmastery tweak in BG2EE. Anyone knows if it's nerfed in BGEE?).
How would you distribute your proficiencies in this kind of class: spread them around or focus on something more common and useful all-around (long swords and longbows comes to mind), and use others weapon types ad hoc?
I'd say you'd want at least one slashing weapon (long swords do come to mind,) and one crushing weapon (like morningstars,) to deal with various forms of enemies up front. Some things, like skeletons, for instance, are quite resistant to slashing and piercing weapons, so having a crushing weapon means you can continue to fight without worry.
Longbows are a good choice for when ranged combat is needed, since a composite longbow requires 18 strength, and you should have that as a fighter. Though axes might be a good alternative, with the ability to use some in melee (as a slashing weapon) and throw others when needed, all for the price of the same exact pips. Plus, not a lot of competition with throwing axes.
Quarterstaves and two handed style, wizard slayer. Rapid weapon speed to interrupt spells, reach, spell failure. It felt fun and I never felt vulnerable. Plus inexpensive +3 staff easily acquired. I was a Halfling and decided my inherent non magical nature combined with studying with so many wizards and staff wielding Watchers made perfect sense
The thing about pure-classed fighters is that unless you want to grandmaster a ranged weapon, you can add the berserker kit with no penalties whatsoever. So, you know, why wouldn't you? You get all the coolness of a pure-classed fighter (can grandmaster, d10 hit points, four quick weapon slots, use any armor, weapon, and almost any magic item), plus immunity to all the worst that magic can do to you in the game.
If you want to play through the game and feel like your character is Superman, then berserker is the way to go.
I considered Berserker but it didn't quite fit the character I had in mind. Also, I might want to specialise in ranged weapons as to increase that versatility.
Yeah, I just don't want to RP myself as a berserker: uncontrolled, irrational rage doesn't appeal to me. I really think the downside should have been the same as Minsc and that you can end up attacking friends to be consistent with lore and myth. Then there would be a downside as powerful as the ridiculous benefit
Playing my first Fighter playthrough and enjoying it much more than my typical F/M or Cleric/Rngr. An 82Pt Human but with 18/00 strength wielding Long Sword and Sling with Shields. Pure unfettered joy.
I had gotten so tired of holding back when Ogre Berserkers were approaching, hoping they would fall to ranged weapon fire or a spell of some sort. How much more satisfying to take them on in melee with -6AC or better.
Yessiree and "Bob's yer Uncle!!". Thasss what I'm talkin' 'bout. And THAT!! And THAT!!! ET CETERA!!!
My party is Imoen dual-classed at level 4, Minsc, Branwen, Kivan. Planning to recruit Quayle once we get to Baldur's Gate for some Cleric and Mage firepower. No problems so far.
Just doing BG1. If I were going to do the whole saga I would probably have gone with a more intelligent Charname that could dual-class in Chateau Irenicus to Mage. Can't wait for that fourth pip and Grandmastery Longsword.
~~~~~~"FREEEEEDOM!!!!!!"~~~~~~~ [Braveheart]
My party blasted through the Bandit Camp last night. Almost too easy with Charname [Zaccheus] holding off on Level 6 so that we can get the Level 5 version of Coran before heading off to Ulgoth's Beard.
Note: RPing that Kivan has succumbed to an uncontrollable craving for the head of Tazok since the Bandit Camp encounter and has been recruited by Aldeth Sashenstar with a promise of long-term employment as a Ranger attached to Cloakwood Lodge plus access to connections in the city who will probably be much more effective against whatever Tazok is involved with than Zaccheus and friends. ~No hard feelings about his departure...]
It is really amazing how much I had previously been stressing out with Fighter/Mage protagonists. Which spells to load before resting?? should I do the bizarre Armor drop for buffing or just go for it?? or maybe this time I really need to toss-off a few Magic Missiles so I need the Archmage Cloak......and WTF are ALL these potions FOR!!? Keeping it simple is SOOOOO much better.
One thing I am noticing is that the game is a whole lot more fun when both Minsc and Zaccheus are rampaging... The buddy factor I guess.
Totally agree about the versatility thing. Along with Varscona and Sling I am keeping a Composite Longbow and Flail+1 in Inventory for special situations. Dagger of Venom is also on my thoughts as one solution for the Final Battle.
I just decided to experiment with fighter builds way back in classic BG1. I made an elf, gave him a Drow portrait, named him "Drow, of the Fist" (with a background story as to him being raised by The Order of the Flaming Fist), and played a bit with LongSwords and Crossbow for ranged. Since I had cheesed the Rolls until I got an amazing roll, I had 18/100-19-17-19-10-10-10 stats, and it was my first 18/100 character. OMG? that was awesome. I really wanted for him to dual-wield but that was not an option in classic BG1. He did look like a flaming fist dude with the shield/helm, armor and color scheme.
Then I imported him in BG2... OMFG. Slice and dice much? 5 stars in Longswords, 3 stars in Dual-wield It was just insane. And it was very funny playing him in multi-player getting all kind of comments on "drows" and "stupid name", until I started the slice-and-dice dance. Drizzt and Zaknafein would've been proud of my guy. Strength+Dex+Con books from BG1 really made that guy unstoppable. A bit weak vs magic since there is no "Drow" main protagonist (unless you hack magic resistance), but that was amazing fun.
Second best was "Soyaliss" an Elven Pure fighter Composite Longbow/2H-Sword dude. He rocked in BG1, but in BG2 because of monster resistance vs normal arrows he didn't keep my favors (too expensive to run him thru the game... much like archers in general in AD&D... exception Arcane Archers).
I think I'll try to remake my drow dude... Maybe find him a proper name and portrait this time.
Might be a bit rudimentary, but I enjoy a Dwarven Berzerker over any other kind of fighter kits. While in berzerk and with his naturally low saving throws and high hp he's pretty close to unstoppable, and with a grandmastery in any kind of weapon you're tearing through enemies quite nicely too.
Just the imagined fear in the enemies face when all their spells and abilities reads "Save vs Spell" while another of their allies explode in a cloud of flesh and bone, and he sets his sight on them... mmm...
Aside from that, Blackguard is a hell of an iconic kit if you want to be an evil bastard.
I often find that too many people get stuck on Archetypes such as "Fighter" or "Beserker" in my PnP games, which I find bleeds into people playing virtual games as well. This isn't a stab at anybody or anyone in particular, in fact I hope to use this thread as a platform for explaining my thoughts and feelings on the matter.
A "Fighter" isn't just some weapon master "kill all the stuff", s/he's a person, with interests, ideals, hobbies, family and friends. S/he likes mutton, but dislikes mead. S/he is a militia personal, a mercenary, a fencing ace, etc.
A "Beserker" isn't just some rageaholic. A Beserker could be an articulate, well-read sage with a perchance for loosing control and lashing out explosively. Conversely a Beserker could also be someone who channels the inner fire of their soul in graceful displays of sword strokes; dancing and weaving through enemies like a troupe actor.
Letting yourself be defined by an Archetypal name-hold (ex; Fighter, Beserker, Mage, Thief) imposes self-made limits on your creativity and imagination. This is something I had to explain to my Players when we did Star Wars SAGA Edition: Just because you picked the "Jedi" class, doesn't mean that you have to be a Jedi. You could be a smuggler with an unconscious connection to the Force, a Prince who's honeyed words and good looks are a direct manipulative effort of the Force. "Jedi" is just a place-holder name for someone who has a direct link to the Force, whether consciously or otherwise. You can be anything you want to be within that context, the only limit is you.
For anyone looking for role-playing inspiration I hope this small rant helps. You can be a Beserker and not be a Beserker. You can be a Blackguard who uses the power of evil to do good things, fighting fire with fire for the greater harmony of all. Do not let yourself be swept under by self-imposed restrictions. Let your creativity fly free!
For an example of how powerful a well put together fighter can be, I recently soloed Torgal at level 9 using Full Plate (that I'd effortlessly gotten off of Glaicus by using the Darts of Stunning I'd found outside his room), Helm of Balduran, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of Protection, Girdle of Piercing, and Berserker rage to get my effective AC down to -11. Torgal couldn't even land a single hit before I killed him.
Wizard Slayer isn't bad, if you're willing to accept their limitations.
Berserker is great, but you get more out of Barbarian.
I dunno, Barbarians may get some nice tasty things, but that's at the expense of putting a full 5 pips in a weapon. While sure, you can only hit 4 in the first game, hitting 5 as soon as you can in the second is just tasty.
Wizard Slayer isn't bad, if you're willing to accept their limitations.
Berserker is great, but you get more out of Barbarian.
I dunno, Barbarians may get some nice tasty things, but that's at the expense of putting a full 5 pips in a weapon. While sure, you can only hit 4 in the first game, hitting 5 as soon as you can in the second is just tasty.
Their rage overcomes that. Berserker rage is pathetic by comparison.
@rapsam2003, back that up with math, please. By my calculations, once your strength reaches 19 (which it will pretty quickly in most playthroughs), the berserker is generally a better damage-dealer. Between the higher max proficiency and the berserker rage bonuses, a berserker gets +4 to hit, +5 damage, and an extra half attack to weigh against the barbarian's +4 strength. As long as your base strength is at least 18:00, which again is normal for charname fighters for most of the saga, the best you can get from +4 strength is +3 to hit and +5 damage, which still puts the barbarian 1 point of THAC0 and a half attack behind the berserker.
The barbarian does get a few more hit points from their rage at high levels, but they also get worse immunities. Comparing ACs and resistances is... more complicated, but it certainly isn't the case that the berserker is obviously worse than the barbarian.
Comparing ACs and resistances is... more complicated, but it certainly isn't the case that the berserker is obviously worse than the barbarian.
Berserker rage gives the following for 60 seconds: +2 bonus to damage
-2 bonus to armor class and THAC0
+15 hit points <i class="Italic">(taken away at the end of rage)</i>
<i class="Italic">Winded after Rage (suffers -2 penalty to hit and damage, and a +2 AC penalty)</i>
Barbarian rage gives the following for 60 seconds: +4 Strength and Constitution
-2 Armor Class penalty.
immune to Charm, Fear, Hold, Maze and level-drain spells but not to Confusion.
You tell me which gives more bonuses, bud. Berserker rage has ALWAYS been "barbarian rage lite". +4 Str & +4 Con -- not to mention the immunities -- outweigh Berserker rage. +2 dmg doesn't mean much compared to a potential 21 to 23 Str. 60 seconds CAN BE an entire fight. A barbarian will do more raw damage over the course of a fight, despite the advantage of higher max proficiency. Also, the fact that Barbarians aren't winded after their rage makes them even more attractive.
Berserkers also have immunity to the status effects of fear, charm, sleep, hold, maze and imprisonment while being enraged. So the immunity argument favors the Berserker. Notice Barbarians are not immune to imprisonment, which may not matter in BGEE but if you plan on importing the character into BG2, Liches will give you nightmares.
@rapsam2003, barbarian rage lasts only 30 seconds, not 60, and as jackjack points out, berserker rage grants better immunities than barbarian rage. Now, you say the +4 strength gives the barbarian a damage advantage, but let's crunch some actual numbers here. I'm going to make some general assumptions about strength scores as the game progresses. Note that higher strength scores tend to have the berserker, so long as we're always talking about a strength of at least 15 (below which the barbarian's rage become dramatically worse). I'm also going to assume the character in question is always raging, since power when raging is the main point of debate.
Barbarians are always assumed to wear splint mail. Berserkers are assumed to wear the best armor they can reasonably be expected to have at a given level. Everyone is assumed to have an 18 Con.
1st level, 18:51 strength Berserker, splint mail
To hit: +1 specialization, +2 strength, +2 rage = +5
At this level, the barbarian does deal a lot more damage, but also has a dramatically worse AC. The winner is unclear, although personally I'm inclined to favor the berserker, because both of them do enough damage to one-shot almost anything they'll fight at this level.
3rd level, 18:51 strength Berserker, full plate/ankheg plate
To hit: +3 mastery, +2 strength, +2 rage = +7
Damage: +3 mastery, +3 strength, +2 rage = +8
APR: 1 base, + .5 mastery = 1.5
AC: 1 base, - 2 rage = -1
HP: +15 rage, +4*3 Con = +27
Barbarian
To hit: +1 specialization, +4 strength = +5
Damage: +2 specialization, +10 strength = +12
APR: 1 base, +.5 specialization = 1.5
AC: 4 base, +2 rage = 6
HP: +4 barbarian hit dice, +6*3 con = 22
The berserker's AC advantage increases, and they gain a noticeable THAC0 bonus over the barbarian. The berserker's damage per hit still lags behind, but with the THAC0 difference, it's not immediately obvious who actually has the higher average damage (it depends on the target's armor class). Overall, the berserker probably has a small offensive disadvantage but a huge defensive advantage.
9th level, 19 strength Berserker, full plate
To hit: +3 grandmastery, +3 strength, +2 rage = +8
The barbarian now loses in every way but hit points, and even there, the 7 point AC difference means the 13 extra hit points won't last long in most fights. This is not a good level for the barbarian.
20th level, 21 strength Berserker, full plate
To hit: +3 grandmastery, +4 strength, +2 rage = +9
HP: +10 barbarian hit dice, +6*9 con = +64, but also 20% resistance to physical damage
The barbarian is still strictly equal-or-worse in all offensive areas, although the margin isn't huge. By this point, the barbarian starts to shine defensively, however, as the AC discrepancy means less and less, and the barbarian's damage resistance has come into play in a big way. Still, from a damage-dealing standpoint, the barbarian can't hold a candle to the berserker.
All in all, the barbarian starts the game as a better damage dealer, but by 3rd level the berserker is already catching up in a serious way. As the game progresses, the berserker pulls ahead, and the barbarian never catches up in terms of damage output.
Also note that if we assume the characters are half-orcs, and can therefore start with 19 strength, the barbarian's early-game damage advantage is greatly diminished. The main advantage of the barbarian is being able to get over the 18-19 strength hump. Once you're past that, the barbarian's +4 strength is much less attractive.
Comments
Either way, this kind've makes me want to play as a straight Fighter, vanilla, no kit (perhaps add the true-grandmastery tweak in BG2EE. Anyone knows if it's nerfed in BGEE?).
How would you distribute your proficiencies in this kind of class: spread them around or focus on something more common and useful all-around (long swords and longbows comes to mind), and use others weapon types ad hoc?
Longbows are a good choice for when ranged combat is needed, since a composite longbow requires 18 strength, and you should have that as a fighter. Though axes might be a good alternative, with the ability to use some in melee (as a slashing weapon) and throw others when needed, all for the price of the same exact pips. Plus, not a lot of competition with throwing axes.
If you want to play through the game and feel like your character is Superman, then berserker is the way to go.
http://mikesrpgcenter.com/index.html
Note: RPing that Kivan has succumbed to an uncontrollable craving for the head of Tazok since the Bandit Camp encounter and has been recruited by Aldeth Sashenstar with a promise of long-term employment as a Ranger attached to Cloakwood Lodge plus access to connections in the city who will probably be much more effective against whatever Tazok is involved with than Zaccheus and friends. ~No hard feelings about his departure...]
It is really amazing how much I had previously been stressing out with Fighter/Mage protagonists. Which spells to load before resting?? should I do the bizarre Armor drop for buffing or just go for it?? or maybe this time I really need to toss-off a few Magic Missiles so I need the Archmage Cloak......and WTF are ALL these potions FOR!!? Keeping it simple is SOOOOO much better.
One thing I am noticing is that the game is a whole lot more fun when both Minsc and Zaccheus are rampaging... The buddy factor I guess.
Totally agree about the versatility thing. Along with Varscona and Sling I am keeping a Composite Longbow and Flail+1 in Inventory for special situations. Dagger of Venom is also on my thoughts as one solution for the Final Battle.
Then I imported him in BG2... OMFG. Slice and dice much? 5 stars in Longswords, 3 stars in Dual-wield
It was just insane. And it was very funny playing him in multi-player getting all kind of comments on "drows" and "stupid name", until I started the slice-and-dice dance. Drizzt and Zaknafein would've been proud of my guy. Strength+Dex+Con books from BG1 really made that guy unstoppable. A bit weak vs magic since there is no "Drow" main protagonist (unless you hack magic resistance), but that was amazing fun.
Second best was "Soyaliss" an Elven Pure fighter Composite Longbow/2H-Sword dude. He rocked in BG1, but in BG2 because of monster resistance vs normal arrows he didn't keep my favors (too expensive to run him thru the game... much like archers in general in AD&D... exception Arcane Archers).
I think I'll try to remake my drow dude... Maybe find him a proper name and portrait this time.
Just the imagined fear in the enemies face when all their spells and abilities reads "Save vs Spell" while another of their allies explode in a cloud of flesh and bone, and he sets his sight on them... mmm...
Aside from that, Blackguard is a hell of an iconic kit if you want to be an evil bastard.
A "Fighter" isn't just some weapon master "kill all the stuff", s/he's a person, with interests, ideals, hobbies, family and friends. S/he likes mutton, but dislikes mead. S/he is a militia personal, a mercenary, a fencing ace, etc.
A "Beserker" isn't just some rageaholic. A Beserker could be an articulate, well-read sage with a perchance for loosing control and lashing out explosively. Conversely a Beserker could also be someone who channels the inner fire of their soul in graceful displays of sword strokes; dancing and weaving through enemies like a troupe actor.
Letting yourself be defined by an Archetypal name-hold (ex; Fighter, Beserker, Mage, Thief) imposes self-made limits on your creativity and imagination. This is something I had to explain to my Players when we did Star Wars SAGA Edition: Just because you picked the "Jedi" class, doesn't mean that you have to be a Jedi. You could be a smuggler with an unconscious connection to the Force, a Prince who's honeyed words and good looks are a direct manipulative effort of the Force. "Jedi" is just a place-holder name for someone who has a direct link to the Force, whether consciously or otherwise. You can be anything you want to be within that context, the only limit is you.
For anyone looking for role-playing inspiration I hope this small rant helps. You can be a Beserker and not be a Beserker. You can be a Blackguard who uses the power of evil to do good things, fighting fire with fire for the greater harmony of all. Do not let yourself be swept under by self-imposed restrictions. Let your creativity fly free!
Berserker is great, but you get more out of Barbarian.
The barbarian does get a few more hit points from their rage at high levels, but they also get worse immunities. Comparing ACs and resistances is... more complicated, but it certainly isn't the case that the berserker is obviously worse than the barbarian.
+2 bonus to damage -2 bonus to armor class and THAC0 +15 hit points <i class="Italic">(taken away at the end of rage)</i> <i class="Italic">Winded after Rage (suffers -2 penalty to hit and damage, and a +2 AC penalty)</i>Barbarian rage gives the following for 60 seconds:
+4 Strength and Constitution -2 Armor Class penalty. immune to Charm, Fear, Hold, Maze and level-drain spells but not to Confusion.You tell me which gives more bonuses, bud. Berserker rage has ALWAYS been "barbarian rage lite". +4 Str & +4 Con -- not to mention the immunities -- outweigh Berserker rage. +2 dmg doesn't mean much compared to a potential 21 to 23 Str. 60 seconds CAN BE an entire fight. A barbarian will do more raw damage over the course of a fight, despite the advantage of higher max proficiency. Also, the fact that Barbarians aren't winded after their rage makes them even more attractive.
Barbarians are always assumed to wear splint mail. Berserkers are assumed to wear the best armor they can reasonably be expected to have at a given level. Everyone is assumed to have an 18 Con.
1st level, 18:51 strength
Berserker, splint mail
- To hit: +1 specialization, +2 strength, +2 rage = +5
- Damage: +2 specialization, +3 strength, +2 rage = +7
- APR: 1 base, + .5 specialization = 1.5
- AC: 4 base, - 2 rage = 2
- HP: +15 rage, +4 con = +19
Barbarian- To hit: +1 specialization, +4 strength = +5
- Damage: +2 specialization, +10 strength = +12
- APR: 1 base, +.5 specialization = 1.5
- AC: 4 base, +2 rage = 6
- HP: +2 barbarian hit die, +6 con = +8
At this level, the barbarian does deal a lot more damage, but also has a dramatically worse AC. The winner is unclear, although personally I'm inclined to favor the berserker, because both of them do enough damage to one-shot almost anything they'll fight at this level.3rd level, 18:51 strength
Berserker, full plate/ankheg plate
- To hit: +3 mastery, +2 strength, +2 rage = +7
- Damage: +3 mastery, +3 strength, +2 rage = +8
- APR: 1 base, + .5 mastery = 1.5
- AC: 1 base, - 2 rage = -1
- HP: +15 rage, +4*3 Con = +27
Barbarian- To hit: +1 specialization, +4 strength = +5
- Damage: +2 specialization, +10 strength = +12
- APR: 1 base, +.5 specialization = 1.5
- AC: 4 base, +2 rage = 6
- HP: +4 barbarian hit dice, +6*3 con = 22
The berserker's AC advantage increases, and they gain a noticeable THAC0 bonus over the barbarian. The berserker's damage per hit still lags behind, but with the THAC0 difference, it's not immediately obvious who actually has the higher average damage (it depends on the target's armor class). Overall, the berserker probably has a small offensive disadvantage but a huge defensive advantage.9th level, 19 strength
Berserker, full plate
- To hit: +3 grandmastery, +3 strength, +2 rage = +8
- Damage: +5 grandmastery, +7 strength, +2 rage = +14
- APR: 1.5 base, + 1 grandmastery = 2.5
- AC: 1 base, - 2 rage = -1
- HP: +15 rage, +4*9 Con = +51
Barbarian- To hit: +1 specialization, +5 strength = +6
- Damage: +2 specialization, +11 strength = +13
- APR: 1.5 base, +.5 specialization = 2
- AC: 4 base, +2 rage = 6
- HP: +10 barbarian hit dice, +6*9 con = +64
The barbarian now loses in every way but hit points, and even there, the 7 point AC difference means the 13 extra hit points won't last long in most fights. This is not a good level for the barbarian.20th level, 21 strength
Berserker, full plate
- To hit: +3 grandmastery, +4 strength, +2 rage = +9
- Damage: +5 grandmastery, +9 strength, +2 rage = +16
- APR: 2 base, + 1 grandmastery = 3
- AC: 1 base, - 2 rage = -1
- HP: +15 rage, +4*9 Con = +51
Barbarian- To hit: +1 specialization, +7 strength = +8
- Damage: +2 specialization, +14 strength = +16
- APR: 2 base, +.5 specialization = 2.5
- AC: 4 base, +2 rage = 6
- HP: +10 barbarian hit dice, +6*9 con = +64, but also 20% resistance to physical damage
The barbarian is still strictly equal-or-worse in all offensive areas, although the margin isn't huge. By this point, the barbarian starts to shine defensively, however, as the AC discrepancy means less and less, and the barbarian's damage resistance has come into play in a big way. Still, from a damage-dealing standpoint, the barbarian can't hold a candle to the berserker.All in all, the barbarian starts the game as a better damage dealer, but by 3rd level the berserker is already catching up in a serious way. As the game progresses, the berserker pulls ahead, and the barbarian never catches up in terms of damage output.
Also note that if we assume the characters are half-orcs, and can therefore start with 19 strength, the barbarian's early-game damage advantage is greatly diminished. The main advantage of the barbarian is being able to get over the 18-19 strength hump. Once you're past that, the barbarian's +4 strength is much less attractive.