Are the "extra attack per round" weapons generally better than ones that don't have it?
superluccix
Member Posts: 76
So I'm debating which type of weapons to use for my party. Like for Mazzy, I have a Tungian Bow which does 3 attacks per round, but I have other bows that have a higher +THAC0 to them but with no special abilities. I see various weapons that have these "Extra attack per round" and I was wondering if these are generally better than ones that don't have them, but have a higher THAC0 to them with no other special ability.
If I were to take a guess I would imagine if you know you can hit your enemy, you go with the one that attacks more often, if you don't know if you can hit your enemy, you go with the one that has higher THAC0, but I don't know if there are other angles or variables to consider
If I were to take a guess I would imagine if you know you can hit your enemy, you go with the one that attacks more often, if you don't know if you can hit your enemy, you go with the one that has higher THAC0, but I don't know if there are other angles or variables to consider
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Comments
With one handed melee versions try to put them in the characters offhand as the bonus attack will apply to the mainhand stronger weapon.
With the Tuigan bow use it unless you can see lots of misses coming up. The math involved in figuring out the point at which you shouldn't use it is tricky but generally use it until you find a *much* better bow, like one that you have to craft from multiple pieces.
If you're only using one weapon, then a +APR weapon can be good, but is likely not optimal.
But yeah, at this stage of the game, Belm and Kundane are generally the best off-hand weapons. They're even good for single-wielding rogues, because doubling your APR is huge.
The ranged weapons with an extra attack are excellent, too. I consider the Tuigan Bow and Army Scythe to be the second best bow and crossbow in the game.
If you're trying to disrupt a spellcaster - go for APR. If you're trying to take large chunks out of a high level, high HP opponent - go for THACO.
Also, you need to match up weapons with the npcs that can make the best use of them. Try switching the two weapons in and out of the npcs quick slots in their inventory and see how their attack and damage stats vary. At higher levels even the "best" weapon in the game is about as effective as a stick of rhubarb in the hands of someone with no proficiencies in the right weapon or style (dual-wielding for example).
Note that this only applies to OFF hand scenarios. When it comes to MAIN hand weapons, things look very different. And, as was rightly pointed out, things like proficiency do play a role as well.
My kensai (pure) with grandmaster in longswords has enough apr that she doesn't need the extra apr when something that offers a magical protection would be more useful if the offhand- things like protection from hold is a nice bonus to have among other magical bonuses that an off-hand weapon can give you.
The weapons that give an extra attack like belm are more useful to those classes that do not get more than one apr - thieves or multi-classes for example would benefit from an extra attack bonus from these weapons.
As for Mazzy she has grandmaster (or even high master 4 points) in short bows giving her at least 3 apr already while Tugian is stuck at 3 apr so you might as well pick a better weapon with a higher Thac0. If you don't have Tansheron then pick it up as it is really the best bow for most of the game.
Given Tugian to another npc that can use short bows (but unable to gain master level) and then have another npc that can fire at a high rate.
With bows, the most important thing is the number of archers you have. If you have just one or two dedicated archers, concentrate on the number of attacks per round. If you have many archers using the same kind of ammunition, it's better to make every arrow count, because you're burning them fast.
The main question in melee is whether the character is primarily a damage dealer (like a real tank) or trying to hold the line (like a MMORPG tank or real infantry). Fragile damage dealers can really benefit from those additional attacks, while infantry should choose weapons by the immunities they grant.
On a similar note, the Tuigan Bow is not stuck at 3 APR. That's merely it's base. Warrior levels and proficiency bonuses add on top of that, so there's not particular reason not to give it to Mazzy.
You should probably pick up Tansheron's Bow, though, just because it can hurt things that need +3 weapons, and it's available way earlier than the Shortbow of Gesen.
Your right about Tuigan - I always thought it was locked at three (learn something new) because I always gave it to a thief (no grandmastery) and if I brought Mazzy along she would always have Tansheron to use. But with grandmastery in bows, Mazzy would do better with a better weapon.
You also bring up an excellent point in that most theory discussions, while academically enlightening and/or entertaining, will not have much of a practical impact for a VAST majority of players - simply because most people don't play on a high enough (modded) difficulty. In its vanilla state the game is, for the most part, not challenging enough to really showcase the finer distinctions. 4 APR or 5 APR often doesn't produce a really noticeable difference when things fall over as soon as you look at them. However, when you're rocking SCS + LoB like some of us do and a dragon has 2,000hp, an extra attack per round over the course of the fight can be a very real and tangible benefit.
If you're not into high-difficulty play, I still encourage interest in game-mechanical discussions - but I would stress that your primary concern should probably be personal enjoyment above all else. Do cool things, be awesome. And don't worry about missing 2% damage potential.
Optimization is ultimately about measuring multiple things that cannot be compared objectively, and then comparing them anyway.
An example would be "coolness" of swords. Player A may think katanas are much cooler than long swords. Player B might think coolness doesn't really matter. Now, Player A arguing for katanas based on coolness will not help Player B a whole lot - but that doesn't mean in any way that the coolness-factor of a given sword isn't hugely important for Player A when they make decisions for their game. Player A can absolutely weigh things like damage output against things like coolness - FOR THEMSELVES. If Player B tried that, things might not make a whole lot of sense for them at all. On damage, they can at least agree on the value - not on the IMPORTANCE of the value, perhaps, but on the magnitude at least.
In the end, all I'm trying to do is present building blocks. I explain their shape, their color, their size. But I'm not trying to, nor do I want to, build your block fort for you. And if you want to build your fort using potatoes instead of blocks then bloody well do so and make it the best Bhaal-darned potato-block fort there ever was. Still, you should know what's out there, even if you don't end up using it.
But of course, as you imply, other weapons have other non-offensive properties, and some of those are quite strong indeed (*coughdefenderofeasthavencough*).
Tugian bow is ofcourse, an excellent weapon for archers, as with more attacks they can pump more bonus damage from their kit in a given round. But Gessen can be better for electrical damage disruption and it hits as +4. Gessen is an end-game special weapon. If the foe is stoneskinned and requires +4 (Final boss of ToB?) Gessen is better, Tugian won't do anything. If not, go Tugian and spread the pain.
Now, that's obviously ignoring on-hit effects like Called Shot and certain powerful special ammo (arrows of detonation have been mentioned a couple times), for which more attacks are king. But overall, Gesen reigns, even against enemies Tuigan can hurt.
Mathing things out is always a good idea.
Edit: Obviously GWW can be a thing for melee, too. You'll want to unequip your OH for the duration, maybe even wield a 2h while it's up.