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Viccy-Romance: Makes sense for goog-aligned Chars???

Suffering from constant Rerolleritis, I throw one question after the other in here ^^ ...till I am finally decided x'D

Always wondered if Viconia's romance makes any sense for a good aligned Charname? Maybe even lawful?
Never played that far with her (always being a good guy), but I don't necessarily want to play Jaheira's romance a third time (even though it's first time Ascension) and Aerie once was enough for a lifetime and the new ones aren't that interesting to begin with (and short). ^^

So, yeah, question ;)

booinyoureyes

Comments

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    Yes. The NPC alignment system is based on their motivations - Viconia is neutral evil because she simply sees no reason why she should care for anyone other than herself, given the sum of her experiences (cast out and hunted by her kin for having doubts about the drow way of life, constant discrimination and fear of being discovered/killed on the surface world, raped, buried alive, etc).

    As long as your PC has an INT/WIS score above 10, your alignment doesn't matter. He should be able to figure out that "hard" doesn't even begin to describe a life like Viconia's, and that's why she acts the way she does. If you keep at it though she does begin to accept that it might be worth it to trust at least one other person, and that's basically what the "good" side of her romance is all about.

    DJKajurucervanntesJuliusBorisov
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,222
    Exactly what @Nuin says, Viconia is my favorite romance because it gives you a"I shouldn't love you but let's give it a try" feeling, which is basically how most couples live - they try to solve their differences and build a relationship in spite of their differences.

  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    So it sounds like it would fit a chaotic good sorcerer, yay ^u^

  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,769
    Viccy's a cleric of Shar and their stated goal is to get close to powerful, good-aligned people and corrupt them to evil. So I've never been able justify it with my good characters. After all, my characters have no way of knowing she's really bad at her job.

    OtherguyConjurerDragongorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    Don't worry too much being a good guy/hero wanna be - doesn't mean you cannot fall in love with the "bad girl" type. When falling for her - it just gives you more of a push to want to change her for the better. As long as you don't worry about what society says about falling in love with a drow and honestly who cares what other regular people (ie those people or groups that populate BG) then its only a matter of choice whether or not you pursue a romantic relationship with Vic.

    gorgonzola
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 292

    Don't worry too much being a good guy/hero wanna be - doesn't mean you cannot fall in love with the "bad girl" type. When falling for her - it just gives you more of a push to want to change her for the better. As long as you don't worry about what society says about falling in love with a drow and honestly who cares what other regular people (ie those people or groups that populate BG) then its only a matter of choice whether or not you pursue a romantic relationship with Vic.

    Yeah. And she looks nice, too.

  • MandragoraMandragora Member Posts: 79
    @Baldurspawn if you want to see how she fits with lawful good,put her with Keldorn in party, wont end well..:D on the other hand, you can imagine how your rare generosity could change her in a good way

  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    edited September 2016
    I know how exceptionally well she fits with lawful good ^^
    My very first playthrough, she was killed by Keldorn (with Carsomyr 2HKOed)... LG Anomen didn't care about what was happening next to him for some reason xD
    And I know Mazzy hates Viccy, so that would be an interesting combo 3:)

  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    On a side-note: Is Neera's Romance any good? She seems (as far as I played with her in BG1) to not fit well into the setting...

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581

    @Baldurspawn if you want to see how she fits with lawful good,put her with Keldorn in party, wont end well..:D on the other hand, you can imagine how your rare generosity could change her in a good way

    Keldorn is Lawful stupid. Rasaad would not have any problem with Viccy. I mean, they'll argue a bit but that's about it.

    On a side-note: Is Neera's Romance any good? She seems (as far as I played with her in BG1) to not fit well into the setting...

    Neera litterally is a misfit. And her romance is rather well written in that aspect, but you gotta like that about her, and if you don't you quite certainly won't like her romance

    Ayiekie
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,135
    Arunsun said:

    @Baldurspawn if you want to see how she fits with lawful good,put her with Keldorn in party, wont end well..:D on the other hand, you can imagine how your rare generosity could change her in a good way

    Keldorn is Lawful stupid. Rasaad would not have any problem with Viccy. I mean, they'll argue a bit but that's about it.

    On a side-note: Is Neera's Romance any good? She seems (as far as I played with her in BG1) to not fit well into the setting...

    Neera litterally is a misfit. And her romance is rather well written in that aspect, but you gotta like that about her, and if you don't you quite certainly won't like her romance
    it's less rasaad having an issue with viccy and more her having an issue with him. the only reason they won't work together in bg2 is due to his quest and thats all i'm saying.

    neera's romace atlest in sod was rather sweet have not done her bg2 one yet.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581

    Arunsun said:

    @Baldurspawn if you want to see how she fits with lawful good,put her with Keldorn in party, wont end well..:D on the other hand, you can imagine how your rare generosity could change her in a good way

    Keldorn is Lawful stupid. Rasaad would not have any problem with Viccy. I mean, they'll argue a bit but that's about it.

    On a side-note: Is Neera's Romance any good? She seems (as far as I played with her in BG1) to not fit well into the setting...

    Neera litterally is a misfit. And her romance is rather well written in that aspect, but you gotta like that about her, and if you don't you quite certainly won't like her romance
    it's less rasaad having an issue with viccy and more her having an issue with him. the only reason they won't work together in bg2 is due to his quest and thats all i'm saying.

    neera's romace atlest in sod was rather sweet have not done her bg2 one yet.
    Rasaad and Viccy can get along rather well depending on how you decide to guide Rasaad during his quest. If you say he should remain true to Selune etc... then yes they'll have some disagreement, but if you go for the "you should consider the heresy" they'll be alright.

  • iavasechuiiavasechui Member Posts: 273
    She does have a potential alignment shift in tob so there is that, if I am not mistaken you have to be good or at least not evil for this to happen. If I remember correctly she goes from neutral evil to true neutral

  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    I wouldn't even have asked if I didn't know about the alignment shift ;P
    Still not decided... will probably just try both of them together and see what strikes my fancy ^^

  • iavasechuiiavasechui Member Posts: 273
    Well I figured but on the off chance someone didn't know I didn't want to spoil XD

  • cervanntescervanntes Member Posts: 64
    I also agree that Viconia is not only a viable romance option for a good character, but in many ways the best choice for a truly good character, for pretty much exactly the reasons Nuin mentioned above. No, she doesn't get along with some of the LG NPCs, but that's not really surprising -- some of them judge her not by her actions, but by her race or religion. She certainly can be evil when surrounded by evil, but by the same token while she may complain bitterly about the foolishness of good people, it becomes increasingly obvious that she's not necessarily evil at heart so much as evil by association. Some of her weaker moments during the romance demonstrate this, as does her potential alignment shift later in the game.

    In fact, my only complaint about Viconia is that she will leave the party if their reputation becomes too great. While this might make some sense for some of the evil NPCs, it never really felt right for Viconia. Sure, she might think her companions are complete idiots for running around helping others instead of looking out for themselves, but she's both wise enough and enough of a survivor to recognize that building a heroic reputation may very well be her only realistic means of long-term survival on the surface world, at least in any kind of comfort and safety. Her leaving at high rep just seems kind of counter to the idea that she can be led from the path of evil, as she clearly can during the romance.

    JuliusBorisovleeux
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    Leaving because of too high rep makes sense, given her romanced epilogue. They are looking for her

    gorgonzolaDJKajuruJuliusBorisov
  • AethernautAethernaut Member Posts: 60
    I think it makes sense because charname and Imoen grew up in a cloistered library fortress being tutored by Gorion and taught lessons by monks/watchers. They're both in their early twenties and haven't been subjected to the same prejudices and social conditioning as the average peasant in the realms have, or have had their lives impacted by drow surface raids etc. Their understanding of the drow will have been imparted to them in a detached, academic fashion if you ask me.

    To that end, a player character of any alignment would likely understand that dark elves are evil, but still perceive Viconia differently.

  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    edited September 2016
    I have never understood why so many try to defend the poor misunderstood dark elf. Fantastic portrait aside of course.

    She is not a slave bound to do evil deeds, she didn't even sell her soul to a demon or something. She turned her back to Lolth and then instead picked Shar because she chose to. She was not forced. There are quite a few other deities available to runaway drow, some of them even of good alignment. Out of the ashes into the flames indeed.

    Viconia is never denied spells which means she has the full backing of her god which tells you all you need to know about her. That woman is wicked, in all the bad ways. I do not think the game gives you enough clues to believe otherwise, at least not until ToB and fully romanced.

    BillyYankgorgonzolaJuliusBorisovSanctifer
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,769
    Otherguy said:

    I have never understood why so many try to defend the poor misunderstood dark elf. Fantastic portrait aside of course.

    She is not a slave bound to do evil deeds, she didn't even sell her soul to a demon or something. She turned her back to Lolth and then instead picked Shar because she chose to. She was not forced. There are quite a few other deities available to runaway drow, some of them even of good alignment. Out of the ashes into the flames indeed.

    Viconia is never denied spells which means she has the full backing of her god which tells you all you need to know about her. That woman is wicked, in all the bad ways. I do not think the game gives you enough clues to believe otherwise, at least not until ToB and fully romanced.

    The thing that annoys me the most about Viconia is that the Bioware writers pretty much threw out all the lore about what a priestess of Shar should be, and gave us this wishy-washy, "Diet-Coke of evil" character. She could have been the power behind the throne for an evil charname or a corrupting influence for a good charname. If I were DM, I certainly wouldn't have let her keep gaining spells. Just the fact that she goes around telling everyone that she's a Sharran just sticks in my craw sideways. The first rule of the church of Shar is you don't talk about the church of Shar.

    gorgonzolaSanctifer
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    I agree with @Nuin about her motivations for picking Shar, especially in the light of what happened to her brother. The theme of loss means a lot to her and this falls under Shar's portfolio. But without metagaming, Charname would need to be extremely softhearted to give her the benefit of the doubt.

    gorgonzola
  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    @Nuin I like how you express yourself. Although I feel that the game shows quite a few examples of Viconia being not so tolerant too, how she demeans and insults Aerie for being gentle and kind for example. And I might be wrong here, but I don't think there are some Sharrans that want to rule the world using darkness. I believe it is Shar herself that wants to end all light and warmth thereby pretty much destroying everything that there is.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,222
    Otherguy said:

    @Nuin I like how you express yourself. Although I feel that the game shows quite a few examples of Viconia being not so tolerant too, how she demeans and insults Aerie for being gentle and kind for example. And I might be wrong here, but I don't think there are some Sharrans that want to rule the world using darkness. I believe it is Shar herself that wants to end all light and warmth thereby pretty much destroying everything that there is.

    Actually, the FR campaign set describes Sharans as corrupt and wicked, they also don't socialize woth anyone of diferent Faiths. In my honest opinion, I prefer to ignore most 0f it and see her as a natural force and consider that vicpnia worships her properly.

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 912
    Star-crossed lovers who should have been incompatible is a trope both in fiction and in real life. Also, Viconia rarely/never really acts particularly evil unless you count being snide as evil. She really should've been neutral-aligned from the getgo.

    Neera's romance is pretty great in the sense of what I look for in a video game relationship (someone who is flawed and interesting and has an existence beyond my PC), but if you find her obnoxious rather than entertaining, it'll probably grate on you (though her priorities do shift from BG1 to SoD to BG2). She notably can do something significantly more evil than Viccy ever does in an optional encounter in BG1.

    Aethernaut
  • AethernautAethernaut Member Posts: 60
    edited September 2016
    Ayiekie said:

    Viconia rarely/never really acts particularly evil unless you count being snide as evil. She really should've been neutral-aligned from the getgo.

    I don't know that I fully agree.

    Viconia has 16 intelligence and 18 wisdom iirc. Considering her experiences over however many centuries she's been alive when she was ruthlessly competing with her sisters in House DeVir and sacrificing surfacers to Lolth, not to mention the societally ingrained cruel outlook of drow culture AND the fact she's now a complete outsider on the surfacer, she tempers her evil outlook with wisdom and intelligence.

    Overt acts of evil are likely to more attention to her than any of the other evil npcs.

    She's not stupid. She's aware of the outcomes of her actions. The loss element of Shar's portfolio and doctrine, when introduced to this, the sum of her experiences and outlook... They seem to have set her on a transition to neutrality/uncertainty (whilst still being evil, if only in outlook).

    I think that's why a romance with her, where the mainchar is the catalyst for that change in her outlook is satisfying to see.

    Just to reiterate on my view, just because you're evil you're not compelled to reveal you are at every moment so as to convince an audience you are, but I suppose from a narrative point of view, it would have been nice if Viconia did the odd thing here or there.

    I like the whole notion that she could have been a more pronounced yet subtle & corruptive influence angle, where she (or any of the other evil npcs for that matter) could have proposed evil options to solve quests - or encouraged you to do evil acts if your character was good/neutral.

    Interesting topic.

    JuliusBorisovDJKajuruAyiekie
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 912


    I don't know that I fully agree.

    Viconia has 16 intelligence and 18 wisdom iirc. Considering her experiences over however many centuries she's been alive when she was ruthlessly competing with her sisters in House DeVir and sacrificing surfacers to Lolth, not to mention the societally ingrained cruel outlook of drow culture AND the fact she's now a complete outsider on the surfacer, she tempers her evil outlook with wisdom and intelligence.

    Overt acts of evil are likely to more attention to her than any of the other evil npcs.

    Oh, I dunno, Baeloth and Dorn draw attention to themselves.

    But I get you; that's a viable character interpretation. It's just one supported by a desire to infer something which reconciles Viconia's behaviour with her alignment, rather than something actually supported by the character's actions or words directly (unless there's something in her romance that directly supports it). Nothing wrong with that, it's pretty much the same thing I was doing when rationalising the Dorn/Viccy conversation awhile back.


    Just to reiterate on my view, just because you're evil you're not compelled to reveal you are at every moment so as to convince an audience you are, but I suppose from a narrative point of view, it would have been nice if Viconia did the odd thing here or there.

    I like the whole notion that she could have been a more pronounced yet subtle & corruptive influence angle, where she (or any of the other evil npcs for that matter) could have proposed evil options to solve quests - or encouraged you to do evil acts if your character was good/neutral.

    I agree that would be interesting, and that evil characters shouldn't be constantly proving their evil bonafides, but I also think an evil-aligned character should be reasonably demonstrative that they are (either by overall behaviour or by specific choices in situations), and not merely have it as an Informed Ability (I also think this about good-aligned characters, and think most characters should be flavours of neutral).

    Admittedly, I mostly just hate that Viccy's clearly set up for any good-aligned character to take her in, has a running plot theme where she is unfairly hated and persecuted for what she is, yet still complains and leaves at high reputation. :)

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