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Is there a canonical BG2 party? Or, help me decide on a party.

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  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692

    Part of it, too, I think is that the Charname/Jahiera/Minsc/Imoen quartet is a bit light on arcane casting, especially before Spellhold. The other arcane spellcaster options would be Nalia and Jan, who overlap too much with Imoen, and Edwin, who fights with Minsc. And maybe Haer'Dalis, but he's pretty hidden and his quest is one of the toughest of chapters 2 and 3. If you rule out Edwin because of the conflict, I don't think there's a more logical replacement than Aerie.

    Oh no. Now you've gone and done it. Now you've just gone and done it.

    I preach this far too often and any of the forumites who recognise me from when I was more active must be filled with scorn and sighs at what they know is inevitably to come.

    If we are to take the 'light on Arcane casting' and 'too close to Imoen' argument far enough as reasons to disqualify Nalia and Jan, you'd actually be interested to know that the same argument loops around to the idea that Nalia was more of a canonical possibility than Aerie. The developers have alleged that the original creative intention was to have Imoen die in BG2, in which case perhaps Yoshimo was supposed to be part of a canon party - or perhaps it was the obvious Imoen replacement who was a bit screwed over by Imoen's return to the series: Nalia De'Arnise.

    To expand upon this possibility, Nalia's side-quest is perhaps the most extensive besides Jaheira's - an entire section of the map is dedicated exclusively to her side-quest and the stronghold which comes with it. Furthermore, there is a clear indication in the narrative of her quest that somebody hired the Trolls to take over the keep, and developers eventually dropped a part of this quest. If that had been included (instead of, let's say, Imoen), then Nalia's side-quest would have been even longer. If we also heed the vague allusions elsewhere (such as in the TotSC save party mentioned in my last comment) that the protagonist is presumed to be a Figher, Nalia becomes all the more central to your party.

    But I don't think that Nalia actually is part of a canon party, no more than Aerie is. I just wanted to flip the logic of your argument to show how differently things could have gone if the developers hadn't made some last minute choices - the decision to drop Nalia's quest, to include Imoen, and perhaps even to make Minsc and Edwin irreconcilable. No, there isn't a canon party, but Aerie's quest is never thrown in your face, it is just coincidence that she is right next door to you when you surface in Athkatla in my opinion: depending on your class, your PC is going to be pushed towards finding certain PCs (Nalia, Valygar, Cernd, Haer'Dalis, Edwin, Mazzy) once they meet Gaelan Bayle, but you are never pushed towards meeting Aerie except by your own initiative.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    The best argument for Aerie's importance is Minsc's failed dajemma with Dynaheir, and the fact that he can redeem himself by re-bonding with Aerie as his new witch. Aerie gives Minsc's and Dynaheir's story a less tragic conclusion. There's also the having-a-baby with Charname thing, which arguably canonizes the good choice at the end of Charname not ascending to become the evil god of murder.


    Do we still need to spoiler tag this kind of stuff in a 20 year old game?
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    When in doubt, err on the side of caution.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    edited April 2017

    Oh no. Now you've gone and done it. Now you've just gone and done it.

    I preach this far too often and any of the forumites who recognise me from when I was more active must be filled with scorn and sighs at what they know is inevitably to come.

    If we are to take the 'light on Arcane casting' and 'too close to Imoen' argument far enough as reasons to disqualify Nalia and Jan, you'd actually be interested to know that the same argument loops around to the idea that Nalia was more of a canonical possibility than Aerie. The developers have alleged that the original creative intention was to have Imoen die in BG2, in which case perhaps Yoshimo was supposed to be part of a canon party - or perhaps it was the obvious Imoen replacement who was a bit screwed over by Imoen's return to the series: Nalia De'Arnise.

    To expand upon this possibility, Nalia's side-quest is perhaps the most extensive besides Jaheira's - an entire section of the map is dedicated exclusively to her side-quest and the stronghold which comes with it. Furthermore, there is a clear indication in the narrative of her quest that somebody hired the Trolls to take over the keep, and developers eventually dropped a part of this quest. If that had been included (instead of, let's say, Imoen), then Nalia's side-quest would have been even longer. If we also heed the vague allusions elsewhere (such as in the TotSC save party mentioned in my last comment) that the protagonist is presumed to be a Figher, Nalia becomes all the more central to your party.

    But I don't think that Nalia actually is part of a canon party, no more than Aerie is. I just wanted to flip the logic of your argument to show how differently things could have gone if the developers hadn't made some last minute choices - the decision to drop Nalia's quest, to include Imoen, and perhaps even to make Minsc and Edwin irreconcilable. No, there isn't a canon party, but Aerie's quest is never thrown in your face, it is just coincidence that she is right next door to you when you surface in Athkatla in my opinion: depending on your class, your PC is going to be pushed towards finding certain PCs (Nalia, Valygar, Cernd, Haer'Dalis, Edwin, Mazzy) once they meet Gaelan Bayle, but you are never pushed towards meeting Aerie except by your own initiative.

    Yeah, I'm aware that Imoen was originally slated to die with Nalia serving as the Imoen-like replacement. But I count at least four "ifs" in there. "If" we presume a canon party should have two arcane casters, (that's my if, not yours, but I think it'd be sacrilege to have a "canon" party that spent all of chapters 2 and 3 without a single arcane caster), "If" Imoen had died, (she didn't), "if" we presume the canon charname was a fighter, (I actually think this is reasonable, given that fighter is the first class on the class selection list, the first pregenerated character, and the charname in "default" parties), "if" the developers had fleshed out the trolls and more explicitly linked them to the Roenalls, (they didn't), then Nalia would be canonesque.

    But Imoen didn't die, and the troll quest wasn't fleshed out more, and so Nalia doesn't seem nearly as canony anymore.

    But here's some non-if statements: Aerie is romanceable, Aerie bonds strongly with a consensus canon party member, Aerie is found in literally the first building you see upon leaving Chateau Irenicus at the end of the easiest "substantial" sidequest of chapter 2, Aerie is the only non-consensus-canon NPC who can be recruited before meeting Gaelen, and Aerie's class combination is extremely balanced against and complementary to the consensus canon group.

    Like I said, I don't think there's any "canon" party members except Jahiera, Minsc, YoshImoen, and maybe Mr. ToB. But a number of little factors can make individual NPCs "more canonish" or "less canonish". Edwin and Viconia carry over from BG1. They appear in the default TotSC party. This bumps them to "more canonish". Edwin conflicts with Minsc, which makes him less canonish.

    When you add up all the little checks and minuses, Aerie I think is the "most canonish" NPC beyond the official canon foursome.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @SomeSort

    I don't think Aerie is usually the first NPC that new players encounter after CI.
    Maybe I'm a timid player, but with most games, before fighting anything unless forced, I wander around as much as possible to get my bearings.
    I remember quite clearly backing out of the circus tent because I didn't want to jump off on some adventure while still being unsure where the hell I was, trying to keep all the options open. And then accidently forgetting about it for ages until my daughter, who was playing her own game as well, started talking about an NPC called Aerie.

    It's always the first playthrough where I stop and talk to everybody available, try and not get involved with anything much, and tend to take NPC who offer their services without having to go through a fight which I'm very unsure about winning.
    Also Jaheira suggests visiting the CC straightaway, well call me a drunk, but checking out a new pub sounds far preferable than fighting anything when new to a game and looking for easy money.

    Viconia, once again, talking to people, gathering information is always my first action. So going to check out the CW seems a very logical step as early as possible. And who doesn't reveal the whole area when getting to a new location?

    I think that's why developers put in some unavoidable fights because they know most players will play for a long time not doing anything much.

    So I'd put Anomen, Nalia and even Kagain as "first encountered NPC" long before Aerie.

    Just as pretty sure the vast majority of first time players of BG initially took Xzar and Monteron.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    the circus to me is meant to be done first. so aerie is the first npc you meet when you leaves the dungeon. i unless your like me and have like 20 something mods then it's kivan :P.
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    edited April 2017

    Just as pretty sure the vast majority of first time players of BG initially took Xzar and Monteron.

    Only to kill them later when they get in a certain intra-party fight. Sides were drawn, and I fall on the side of good.
  • AttalusAttalus Member Posts: 156
    Spoilers
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    I never take Yoshimo (after my first time through, back in 2001). For the first part of the game, I take Minsc, Keldorn, Nalia, Jahiera, and Neera (since she became available, instead of Aerie, who whines too much). When I go off to Spellhold, I kick poor Minsc out and let Yoshimo join at the very last minute (I don't even level him up) to get the, ahem, XP bonus I won't spoil. Then I take Imoen on board and keep her till TOB, when I alternate her with Keldorn or Minsc. I never take Sarevok after my first runthough (I HATE having that portrait glaring at me). I never, in fifteen plus years, have taken Edwin, Korgan, or Haer'Dalis. Mazzy, Anomen, and Jan just once. The new NPCs (the blackguard, monk, and vamp) don't appeal. I always play NG or LG (Paladin - Cavalier, Mage, or Fighter)
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited April 2017
    It's the adventure-game mindset, I suppose. People assume that right after a massacre/the kidnapping of your childhood acquaintance (sister-figure, for the good/neutral aligned) the PC is going to just happily start doing quests even though there's a few NPCs around who will literally tell you something along the lines of "Didn't I see you come out of that rubble with the girl who was taken?" and despite the fact that you just had wave after wave of attempts on your life just a few minutes before the Irenicus rampage scene.
    From assassins.

    I mean seriously, you don't even know where the hell you are (unless you're willing to trust the word of a thief you just met) and what became of whatever business you were in the middle of before you were kidnapped.
    Frankly I'm surprised the guards/cowled wizards weren't all over you too because you were clearly at ground zero when the whole thing happened, but that can be (at least partly) explained away by the brutality of the whole experience and the urgency of dealing with a man who can casually murder powerful wizards.

    Personally I'm the type would leave the general area ASAP and lay low for a few days - let things play out a bit while I try to find my bearings and gather as much information as I can about the situation. Which is exactly what I did in my first playthough.
    "Oh, let's go to the circus with no crowds and talk to some guards" would be VERY low on my priority list.
    Post edited by Nuin on
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    Just as pretty sure the vast majority of first time players of BG initially took Xzar and Monteron.

    Only to kill them later when they get in a certain intra-party fight. Sides were drawn, and I fall on the side of good.
    Never, ever have I done that.

    X and M are OK, much friendlier than J if you can get past them being a little bit socially challenged.
    Maybe it's because I'm an older player, but being called "child" over and over by J means she dies. So rude.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    @SomeSort

    I don't think Aerie is usually the first NPC that new players encounter after CI.
    Maybe I'm a timid player, but with most games, before fighting anything unless forced, I wander around as much as possible to get my bearings.
    I remember quite clearly backing out of the circus tent because I didn't want to jump off on some adventure while still being unsure where the hell I was, trying to keep all the options open. And then accidently forgetting about it for ages until my daughter, who was playing her own game as well, started talking about an NPC called Aerie.

    It's always the first playthrough where I stop and talk to everybody available, try and not get involved with anything much, and tend to take NPC who offer their services without having to go through a fight which I'm very unsure about winning.
    Also Jaheira suggests visiting the CC straightaway, well call me a drunk, but checking out a new pub sounds far preferable than fighting anything when new to a game and looking for easy money.

    Viconia, once again, talking to people, gathering information is always my first action. So going to check out the CW seems a very logical step as early as possible. And who doesn't reveal the whole area when getting to a new location?

    I think that's why developers put in some unavoidable fights because they know most players will play for a long time not doing anything much.

    So I'd put Anomen, Nalia and even Kagain as "first encountered NPC" long before Aerie.

    Just as pretty sure the vast majority of first time players of BG initially took Xzar and Monteron.

    I would wager that your experiences are atypical; most new players I think would explore the immediate area and stumble across Aerie. Sounds like your daughter had no trouble finding her. ;)

    Regardless, any discussion of canon is inevitably one of developer/writer intent, and it seems plain as day to me that the devs/writers intended for you to get Aerie first, because it's the first building you see after emerging, and because they also stuffed the Ring of Human Influence in that tent while they were at it, (their way of acknowledge that yeah, charisma really was as useless as we all thought it was).

    Most importantly, it's by a huge margin the easiest non-fetch/carry sidequest in Chapter 2, which is a big indicator that the developers saw it as a way for new players to get their feet wet. (Based on difficulty, I'd imagine the developers next saw new players freeing the slaves in the Copper Coronet and then branching out from there.)
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited April 2017
    No. Because even if Aerie ends up being the first NPC you recruit after leaving Irenicus' Dungeon, and even if you subscribe to the 6-person only canon party theory (which is heavily implied to be false in the new canon) there's no guarantee that she stays in your party all the way through.

    That last fact is MUCH more plain to see from a developers/writer's point of view considering how much effort and work went into the creation of the other NPCs.

    The devs were also very aware of how potentially annoying Aerie's "delicate" nature was, which is why she becomes much more bearable in ToB.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    no that was because she was supposed to have a quest that was going to toughen her up but it got cut.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited April 2017
    And why do you think she got that quest?
    Aerie was an extremely polarizing figure back when BG2 first came out, and the devs knew it. At some point I think even the "who cares, she's a mage/cleric" crowd finally started to give in and think her wilting flower persona needed to evolve.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Nuin said:

    No. Because even if Aerie ends up being the first NPC you recruit after leaving Irenicus' Dungeon, and even if you subscribe to the 6-person only canon party theory (which is heavily implied to be false in the new canon) there's no guarantee that she stays in your party all the way through.

    That last fact is MUCH more plain to see from a developers/writer's point of view considering how much effort and work went into the creation of the other NPCs.

    The devs were also very aware of how potentially annoying Aerie's "delicate" nature was, which is why she becomes much more bearable in ToB.

    Counterpoint: she's a romance option, so clearly the devs expected you to keep her around.

    But yeah, like I said, I'm on team "Minsc/Jahiera/YoshImoen are obviously canon, nobody else is obviously canon". I think a rotating party makes sense for a lot of reasons, though of course you could always take Aerie as your 5th and just rotate your 6th spot until Mr. ToB shows up.
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    edited April 2017

    no that was because she was supposed to have a quest that was going to toughen her up but it got cut.

    Oh dear. Doesn't sound like the right way to treat your canon NPCs..! :wink:

    Also I find the romanceable NPC argument negligible for Aerie. Jahiera is in your party from literally 30 seconds after the game starts if you want her to be, and she is romanceable with a much longer and more narratively attended storyline (albeit a very glitched one) than Aerie. Viconia is romanceable, too. Both of them are continued from the first game and your dialogue with them does acknowledge that you share a history to a lesser or greater degree. So why does Aerie being romanceable make her valid for a canon party? Doesn't work for me.

    @SomeSort , I will concede to all of my 'ifs' because, as said, I think the developers tore down the notion of a canon party and no such thing exists. If a canon party were to exist, I think it would've been made clear to us (much as a BG1 canon party was made clear to us), but all we can do is make inferences and 'ifs' because it wasn't made clear to us.

    Those who are talking about party member rotation might have the right idea to be honest. As we see in BG2, canon expects that you travelled around with more people in BG1 than the ones you entered BG2 with - Xzar, Montaron, Edwin, Viconia, Conan, Safana and Tiax all remember you, which suggests you encountered each other for more than a passing moment. In ToB, the statues in your Pocket Plane allow you to acknowledge the existence of NPCs that you might not ever have even met in BG2. Therefore I don't think it is stretching reality to believe that maybe all of the NPCs were intended to be a part of your character's party at one point or another.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited April 2017
    From previous page:
    Nuin said:

    If you go by the new 5th edition D&D canon it is implied that every NPC traveled with the PC Bhaalspawn at some point. The implied setup is a lot like Dragon Age: Origins group where while the PC has to form a smaller party to do quests with, the PC's actual inner circle is much larger. Minsc and Viconia are confirmed to have traveled with the PC.

    This was confirmed by the Neverwinter MMO, which has to run every story detail they plan to add into their game over by the folks at WotC.

    Viconia is only briefly mentioned while Minsc himself never really confirms if he was with the PC from start to finish, the details of canon seem intentionally left vague to allow players freedom to fill in the blanks.
    Minsc does make repeated references to having fought beside all manner of comrades (no names, just nondescript things like saying he's had experience working with all kinds of warriors and spellcasters) and since Viconia's not exactly the first NPC you'll bump into then we can infer that the PC did actually meet all (or at least most) of the joinable NPCs in the game.
    Post edited by Nuin on
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    no that was because she was supposed to have a quest that was going to toughen her up but it got cut.

    Oh dear. Doesn't sound like the right way to treat your canon NPCs..! :wink:

    Also I find the romanceable NPC argument negligible for Aerie. Jahiera is in your party from literally 30 seconds after the game starts if you want her to be, and she is romanceable with a much longer and more narratively attended storyline (albeit a very glitched one) than Aerie. Viconia is romanceable, too. Both of them are continued from the first game and your dialogue with them does acknowledge that you share a history to a lesser or greater degree. So why does Aerie being romanceable make her valid for a canon party? Doesn't work for me.

    @SomeSort , I will concede to all of my 'ifs' because, as said, I think the developers tore down the notion of a canon party and no such thing exists. If a canon party were to exist, I think it would've been made clear to us (much as a BG1 canon party was made clear to us), but all we can do is make inferences and 'ifs' because it wasn't made clear to us.

    Those who are talking about party member rotation might have the right idea to be honest. As we see in BG2, canon expects that you travelled around with more people in BG1 than the ones you entered BG2 with - Xzar, Montaron, Edwin, Viconia, Conan, Safana and Tiax all remember you, which suggests you encountered each other for more than a passing moment. In ToB, the statues in your Pocket Plane allow you to acknowledge the existence of NPCs that you might not ever have even met in BG2. Therefore I don't think it is stretching reality to believe that maybe all of the NPCs were intended to be a part of your character's party at one point or another.
    Like I said, I don't think a romance alone makes someone "canon", or even "canonish". It's all a matter of counting up pluses and minuses and seeing who has the strongest case. And I think Aerie has more pluses and fewer minuses than any other NPC.

    Really, though, this whole sidetrack started in response to you saying: "I really don't see how one could argue that Aerie was intended to be part of a canon party over Viconia, though. Her constant reoccurrence among the replies here that pitch canon party concepts doesn't make any sense to me."

    So I played devil's advocate, (again: I'm on team "only the guys in Chateau Irenicus are canon"), to demonstrate exactly how one could argue that Aerie was intended over Viconia. Her location and quest strongly indicate the developers intended for her to be the first party member you recruited, her alignment fits the group dynamic better, her class fits the group dynamic better, and she has major interactions with Minsc that arguably grant closure to his story. (She's romanceable, but so is Viconia, so that's a check in both of their "plus" columns.)

    (Also, it's interesting to note that Xzar, Edwin, Tiax etc. all remember you... if and only if you choose the dialogue option that basically says "hey, don't you remember me?" You could just as easily choose a different dialogue option, in which case they won't remember you. It's been a while since I've done the Coran/Safana sidequest, but it's possible the only NPC who remembers you no matter what is actually Viconia.)
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