@UnderstandMouseMagic "The point I've been trying to make for ages is that Jaheira doesn't leave the Harpers, you cannot ask her to leave the Harpers even after how they have treated you."
Um, yes she does. Over half her questline is about dealing with the consequences of her leaving the Harpers. I am absolutely baffled that you continue to judge her based on an organization that she willingly leaves because she cannot condone what they are doing.
Yeah she does leave them halfway through the quest chain, but if you meet the rep requirement she technically rejoins at the end, although at the time she leaves it's very clear she means it and it's a hard decision for her. Elminster himself is the one that turns up at the end to ask her if she did the right thing and he leaves it up to her conscience to decide the outcome (AKA Rep). That shows that the Harpers did not condone the Athkatla Cell's actions, regardless of whether Jaheira rejoins or not.
I really do like Jahiera's storyline and character progression, because to me seeing how she changes throughout the romance and her storylines is interesting to watch. But I think they did really well on showing progression and change in all 3 female romances. Aerie gains a lot of personality and self confidence that let's her deal with many situations differently than she would at the beginning of the game. (like arguments between her and Korgan I think it is.) Viconia has a long arduous journey of changing literally decades of ingrained thinking and habits that can even culminate in an alignment change(I wish she changed gods as well. but I can head canon that).
Watching Anomen reaffirm himself or completely break is mildly entertaining. But it's just so short in comparison that I just don't really feel like he grows as a person from his big turning point. Even though it changes details about him on paper.
I appreciate your explainations but if anything they support the view that any Charname, for their own self interest, should have nothing to do with Harpers or anybody affiliated with them.
In game, not fics, not mods, the only contact we have with the Harpers is J and K until Athkatla.
Well, J and K. And Gorion, who literally raised you from childhood. And multiple run-ins with Elminster, who babbles cryptically and unhelpfully but at least pretends to be pointing you in the right direction. (He's much more helpful in BG2 when you can pickpocket all of his loot. Twice.) And Delthyr, who shows up in Baldur's Gate after you've escaped from Candlekeep and fills you in on everything you've missed.
I mean, for a secret organization, you've kind of had a lot of contact with the Harpers by the time you reach Athkatla, and in almost all instances it's been helpful, if sometimes cryptic.
You nor Jaheira know that the Harpers in Athkatla are rogue (and that's questionable anyway, deniable plausibility? plan didn't work, it wasn't really us).
You find confirmation that they were rogue during the course of Jahiera's romance. She returns to Galverey's estate and finds that the spectral Harpers are gone.
No other NPC is affiliated with a group that attacks Charname.
Korgan: Shagbag and Co., on top of the Copper Coronet. Edwin: Degarden. Nalia: The Roenalls. Valygar: Lavok. Mazzy: Shade Patrick. (Sorry Mazzy, that was a low blow. I still love you.) Aerie: Kalah. Yoshimo: Duh. Minsc: Minsc. Sarevok: Sarevok.
(Some of those might be better categorized as "formerly affiliated with, currently on the run from", but... um... that kind of fits Jahiera and the Harpers, too.)
Anomen and Keldorn are affiliated with the Order of the Radiant Heart, and you can easily come into conflict with Anarg and several other members of that order.
(This might better fit under "affiliated with, and you come into conflict with rogue members of", but... um... that kind of fits Jahiera and the Harpers, too.)
I know we're not talking about EE NPCs, but if we were, Rasaad would be #1 on this list with a bullet.
Why the special treatment for Jaheira? Why, as Charname, would they put up with somebody who has divided loyalties after those divided loyalties nearly got you killed or worse?
Half the NPCs in the game wind up abandoning you at some point during their personal quest to deal with family troubles. If Charname had something against people with divided loyalties, especially divided loyalties that left Charname at risk, then Charname would spend his entire career soloing, or perhaps just dragging along Imoen.
In the OP the point was made that the game leaves gaps which we fill in ourselves. This whole Jaheira discussion started because I found her reaction to being asked to drop out unbelievably arrogant and ungrateful compared to any other NPC. And that happens after you have nearly been imprisoned/killed by the group she belongs to.
Ungrateful seems like an odd choice of words, here. What, exactly, do you think Jahiera should be grateful for?
Even if you romance her, if you refer to the "Harper problems" along the lines of "I'm glad that garbage is over" the romance breaks. Which is kind of absurd. A throwaway remark can be taken as so bloody insulting when you have had your life (and of course your other NPC's as well) put on the line by Harpers quite a bit by that time.
Imagine you were dating a concert pianist, someone who had devoted her entire life to perfecting her craft, who had sacrificed everything she knew in pursuit of it.
Imagine she got in a car accident, shattered every bone in her hands, and was told she'd never play the piano again.
Imagine afterwards you said "Thank goodness, maybe now that this garbage is behind you it's time to start thinking about getting a real job".
How do you think that would go over?
I get what you're saying about how it's silly that one off-hand comment can end an entire relationship. But the point is that this is not an actual relationship, it is a gamified abstraction of a relationship. The timescale is condensed down, and instead of developing over thousands of interactions over the course of several years, the relationship plays out over a dozen interactions over the course of a couple months.
Because of the abstraction, "screwing up" one of those interactions doesn't represent saying one thoughtless thing one time, it represents being a thoughtless person. The same is true of all of the romances, where if you tell your paramour even a single time that you don't have time for them right now, the entire romance is kaput.
I mean, how would that map to the real world? Could you imagine a real-world relationship where if you said even a single time that it wasn't a good time to talk, your entire relationship would be over? But again, it's an abstraction, so saying "I don't have time for you" doesn't abstract out to "I don't have time for you this one single time", it abstracts out to "You are not a priority for me".
(The height of absurdity is that romance dialogues can trigger whenever enemies aren't visible, so I've literally had Aerie strike up a lovechat with me in the middle of a battle after an enemy went invisible, and I knew that if I said "hey Aerie I'm kind of busy right now trying not to get murdered", she'd still lose all romantic interest in my forever and ever.)
I mean, for a secret organization, you've kind of had a lot of contact with the Harpers by the time you reach Athkatla, and in almost all instances it's been helpful, if sometimes cryptic.
CharNames backstory and early career is a namedrop and Organization meddling nightmare if you really think about it. And yet people get mad because a character like Hexxat has just one big name in their storyline. (or hating on the old Chloe mod having a God for a parent that gave them one not entirely useful godlike stat that you couldn't have)
(or hating on the old Chloe mod having a God for a parent that gave them one not entirely useful godlike stat that you couldn't have)
Not entirely useful?
25 Dex is a +6 AC bonus, true, only 2 better than an 18 Dex. But that AC is pretty damned important for a Kensai who can't wear armor. Especially for being in SoA before everyone hits everything in ToB.
And again, true, she only has a 13 Str, but that's a lot easier to fix (even to 25) than Dex is.
With her stat spread and proficiencies. All your getting out of it is the ac for the most part. She's not well set up to take advantage of any kind of ranged unless you really want to work at it.
And if your willing to go evil during certain trials late SoA. You can actually surpass that 2 ac advantage. So it's a little more useful. But you don't get everything out of it that a pc might, But at the same time it's also not Charisma. Which has no real bearing on much for npc's in most of the Series. I actually like that they can be useful in SoD) but that's well before what we're talking about here.
A min-maxed Elf Kensai boosted up by all of the stat boosts from the books and a certain thing about Watcher's Keep can have a 21Dex which is only -1 behind her with her 4 more dex. Assuming you don't give in to one of the events and subtract dex. You get a boost of an additional 2ac by making a certain evil choice as well.
I usually do a level or two of Watcher's Keep somewhere about mid-SoA myself. So for me a PC Kensai doesn't stay behind her for long and has a lot higher natural damage potential.
But as I recall. her Con is not fully solid for a Fighter class either so you also outdo her on HP as well. She's fairly good. And her special weapons are nice. But she's not overwhelming.
Jaheira can basically be just as strong as Chloe in several ways quite honestly. And some consider Jaheira a little behind for parts of SoA for being a multiclass and the nasty midteens progression slog of midteens levels even for single class Druids.
"Korgan: Shagbag and Co., on top of the Copper Coronet. Edwin: Degarden. Nalia: The Roenalls. Valygar: Lavok. Mazzy: Shade Patrick. (Sorry Mazzy, that was a low blow. I still love you.) Aerie: Kalah. Yoshimo: Duh. Minsc: Minsc. Sarevok: Sarevok."
That list is a stretch by anybody's reckoning.
You can go with Korgan, he is attacked, you help. Degarden gives you the choice to hand Edwin over. The Roenalls, you put yourself in their way. Lavok, the same. Shade Patrick, oh come on, once you're in that temple agreeing to do that quest, and that has nothing to do with Mazzy. Yoshimo, well duh indeed, you have to kill him. Minsc, never take him because he attacks in Nashkel if you say no. Sarevok, don't take him either.
All those examples attack you because of your affiliation with the NPC they are after. Jaheira's group attacks you and they are not after Jaheira (and if rep is too low, she will walk away and let them). They use her to bring you in Can you not see the difference?
"Ungrateful seems like an odd choice of words, here. What, exactly, do you think Jahiera should be grateful for?"
Allowing her to travel with you after she has betrayed you to the Harpers. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. She takes you, albeit unknowingly, to somewhere to be killed.
Who else other than the supremely arrogant wouldn't turn around and say "sorry about that". It's not like she has anywhere else to go or people to see (ooooh burn...)
"Korgan: Shagbag and Co., on top of the Copper Coronet. Edwin: Degarden. Nalia: The Roenalls. Valygar: Lavok. Mazzy: Shade Patrick. (Sorry Mazzy, that was a low blow. I still love you.) Aerie: Kalah. Yoshimo: Duh. Minsc: Minsc. Sarevok: Sarevok."
That list is a stretch by anybody's reckoning.
You can go with Korgan, he is attacked, you help. Degarden gives you the choice to hand Edwin over. The Roenalls, you put yourself in their way. Lavok, the same. Shade Patrick, oh come on, once you're in that temple agreeing to do that quest, and that has nothing to do with Mazzy. Yoshimo, well duh indeed, you have to kill him. Minsc, never take him because he attacks in Nashkel if you say no. Sarevok, don't take him either.
All those examples attack you because of your affiliation with the NPC they are after. Jaheira's group attacks you and they are not after Jaheira (and if rep is too low, she will walk away and let them). They use her to bring you in Can you not see the difference?
The Harpers use Jahiera to bring you in... under false pretenses. She doesn't know they're going to attack. She believes you're not a threat, and she thinks that after speaking to you they'll believe that, too. And as soon as it's clear that's not the case, she flips sides.
So yes, they use her, but that's the fault of the Harpers, not the fault of Jahiera. She was used, she was deceived. Unless your criticism of her is that she's too trusting, which isn't the sense I get at all.
The Shade Patrick bit was a joke.
You're really skewing the Korgan interaction here. It's not like out of the blue people show up and attack him for no reason. Korgan has no compunction against drawing you into a web of betrayal that he started himself.
If you turn Edwin over to Degarden, how are you not guilty of worse than what you're accusing Jahiera of when she turns you over to the Harpers? At least Jahiera fights to defend you once she sees which way things are going. I guess it's fine when you flat-out betray a traveling companion, but it's the end of the world when Jahiera kind-of-betrays a traveling companion, (but not really because she never believed she was actually putting him at risk)?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I think.
"Ungrateful seems like an odd choice of words, here. What, exactly, do you think Jahiera should be grateful for?"
Allowing her to travel with you after she has betrayed you to the Harpers. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. She takes you, albeit unknowingly, to somewhere to be killed.
Who else other than the supremely arrogant wouldn't turn around and say "sorry about that". It's not like she has anywhere else to go or people to see (ooooh burn...)
She's supposed to be grateful for you allowing her to travel with you after the Harpers... and she's supposed to express this gratitude when you dismiss her from the party, which means you're *NOT* allowing her to travel with you after the Harpers? How does that work?
By the way, she does say "sorry" about the Harpers. And that's not counting the fact that she turns around and helps you murder them all, which is a pretty big apology in and of itself. "Sorry for putting you in this mess, I'll help get you out by murdering the only family I have left in the world. Besides you, of course. At least until you abandon me on the side of the road and expect me to be grateful for it."
Comments
Watching Anomen reaffirm himself or completely break is mildly entertaining. But it's just so short in comparison that I just don't really feel like he grows as a person from his big turning point. Even though it changes details about him on paper.
I mean, for a secret organization, you've kind of had a lot of contact with the Harpers by the time you reach Athkatla, and in almost all instances it's been helpful, if sometimes cryptic.
Edwin: Degarden.
Nalia: The Roenalls.
Valygar: Lavok.
Mazzy: Shade Patrick. (Sorry Mazzy, that was a low blow. I still love you.)
Aerie: Kalah.
Yoshimo: Duh.
Minsc: Minsc.
Sarevok: Sarevok.
(Some of those might be better categorized as "formerly affiliated with, currently on the run from", but... um... that kind of fits Jahiera and the Harpers, too.)
Anomen and Keldorn are affiliated with the Order of the Radiant Heart, and you can easily come into conflict with Anarg and several other members of that order.
(This might better fit under "affiliated with, and you come into conflict with rogue members of", but... um... that kind of fits Jahiera and the Harpers, too.)
I know we're not talking about EE NPCs, but if we were, Rasaad would be #1 on this list with a bullet. Half the NPCs in the game wind up abandoning you at some point during their personal quest to deal with family troubles. If Charname had something against people with divided loyalties, especially divided loyalties that left Charname at risk, then Charname would spend his entire career soloing, or perhaps just dragging along Imoen. Ungrateful seems like an odd choice of words, here. What, exactly, do you think Jahiera should be grateful for?
Imagine she got in a car accident, shattered every bone in her hands, and was told she'd never play the piano again.
Imagine afterwards you said "Thank goodness, maybe now that this garbage is behind you it's time to start thinking about getting a real job".
How do you think that would go over?
I get what you're saying about how it's silly that one off-hand comment can end an entire relationship. But the point is that this is not an actual relationship, it is a gamified abstraction of a relationship. The timescale is condensed down, and instead of developing over thousands of interactions over the course of several years, the relationship plays out over a dozen interactions over the course of a couple months.
Because of the abstraction, "screwing up" one of those interactions doesn't represent saying one thoughtless thing one time, it represents being a thoughtless person. The same is true of all of the romances, where if you tell your paramour even a single time that you don't have time for them right now, the entire romance is kaput.
I mean, how would that map to the real world? Could you imagine a real-world relationship where if you said even a single time that it wasn't a good time to talk, your entire relationship would be over? But again, it's an abstraction, so saying "I don't have time for you" doesn't abstract out to "I don't have time for you this one single time", it abstracts out to "You are not a priority for me".
(The height of absurdity is that romance dialogues can trigger whenever enemies aren't visible, so I've literally had Aerie strike up a lovechat with me in the middle of a battle after an enemy went invisible, and I knew that if I said "hey Aerie I'm kind of busy right now trying not to get murdered", she'd still lose all romantic interest in my forever and ever.)
25 Dex is a +6 AC bonus, true, only 2 better than an 18 Dex. But that AC is pretty damned important for a Kensai who can't wear armor. Especially for being in SoA before everyone hits everything in ToB.
And again, true, she only has a 13 Str, but that's a lot easier to fix (even to 25) than Dex is.
And if your willing to go evil during certain trials late SoA. You can actually surpass that 2 ac advantage. So it's a little more useful. But you don't get everything out of it that a pc might, But at the same time it's also not Charisma. Which has no real bearing on much for npc's in most of the Series. I actually like that they can be useful in SoD) but that's well before what we're talking about here.
A min-maxed Elf Kensai boosted up by all of the stat boosts from the books and a certain thing about Watcher's Keep can have a 21Dex which is only -1 behind her with her 4 more dex. Assuming you don't give in to one of the events and subtract dex. You get a boost of an additional 2ac by making a certain evil choice as well.
I usually do a level or two of Watcher's Keep somewhere about mid-SoA myself. So for me a PC Kensai doesn't stay behind her for long and has a lot higher natural damage potential.
But as I recall. her Con is not fully solid for a Fighter class either so you also outdo her on HP as well. She's fairly good. And her special weapons are nice. But she's not overwhelming.
Jaheira can basically be just as strong as Chloe in several ways quite honestly. And some consider Jaheira a little behind for parts of SoA for being a multiclass and the nasty midteens progression slog of midteens levels even for single class Druids.
"Korgan: Shagbag and Co., on top of the Copper Coronet.
Edwin: Degarden.
Nalia: The Roenalls.
Valygar: Lavok.
Mazzy: Shade Patrick. (Sorry Mazzy, that was a low blow. I still love you.)
Aerie: Kalah.
Yoshimo: Duh.
Minsc: Minsc.
Sarevok: Sarevok."
That list is a stretch by anybody's reckoning.
You can go with Korgan, he is attacked, you help.
Degarden gives you the choice to hand Edwin over.
The Roenalls, you put yourself in their way.
Lavok, the same.
Shade Patrick, oh come on, once you're in that temple agreeing to do that quest, and that has nothing to do with Mazzy.
Yoshimo, well duh indeed, you have to kill him.
Minsc, never take him because he attacks in Nashkel if you say no.
Sarevok, don't take him either.
All those examples attack you because of your affiliation with the NPC they are after.
Jaheira's group attacks you and they are not after Jaheira (and if rep is too low, she will walk away and let them).
They use her to bring you in
Can you not see the difference?
"Ungrateful seems like an odd choice of words, here. What, exactly, do you think Jahiera should be grateful for?"
Allowing her to travel with you after she has betrayed you to the Harpers. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. She takes you, albeit unknowingly, to somewhere to be killed.
Who else other than the supremely arrogant wouldn't turn around and say "sorry about that".
It's not like she has anywhere else to go or people to see (ooooh burn...)
So yes, they use her, but that's the fault of the Harpers, not the fault of Jahiera. She was used, she was deceived. Unless your criticism of her is that she's too trusting, which isn't the sense I get at all.
The Shade Patrick bit was a joke.
You're really skewing the Korgan interaction here. It's not like out of the blue people show up and attack him for no reason. Korgan has no compunction against drawing you into a web of betrayal that he started himself.
If you turn Edwin over to Degarden, how are you not guilty of worse than what you're accusing Jahiera of when she turns you over to the Harpers? At least Jahiera fights to defend you once she sees which way things are going. I guess it's fine when you flat-out betray a traveling companion, but it's the end of the world when Jahiera kind-of-betrays a traveling companion, (but not really because she never believed she was actually putting him at risk)?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I think.
By the way, she does say "sorry" about the Harpers. And that's not counting the fact that she turns around and helps you murder them all, which is a pretty big apology in and of itself. "Sorry for putting you in this mess, I'll help get you out by murdering the only family I have left in the world. Besides you, of course. At least until you abandon me on the side of the road and expect me to be grateful for it."