I would not include Cernd in the worst party (maybe him and Valygar would be in the worst personality party). If you treat him as a full caster he is actually pretty useful. I didn't consider EE characters because I don't consider them part of the game.
You are leaving Anomen out of a Worst Personality Contest? He would get my vote, every time.
He's not funny for me. He's boring and annoying. A couple of good lines doesn't make up for the fact that most of his personality is a bad SNL sketch, And his gimmicks are little more than added shiny to make him seem interesting and "gnomish" because this was when the Gnomish Crazy Invention thing was really getting played up in a few different sources. D&D was big on this in 3rd edition and 3.5. It seems like it's toned down a bit again in the newer stuff.
One thing about Bards generally that I think a lot of people don't value is their ability to read scrolls and use wands, potions, and other items that might be restricted to others. I often end games with a huge amount of money and potions and wands I never use. Having a bard use these things up all the time and spending extra cast to keep stocked with these things makes them very useful with low effort - and frees up mages to do the things a Bard can't do.
The other things about Bards, and Blades in particular, is that yeah, much of the time they don't do much of anything. But much of the time they don't need to. When things do need to be tough they usually have enough tools to fix a problem of any sort though, be it becoming an exceptional tank, doing spell damage or spell defense strippers, or self buffing and smashing out quick damage.
They literally can be jack of all trades, and when they put the effort to it, a very very good jack.
There will be very few instances when HD or a CHARNAME bard can't do something useful, but there will be many situations when other characters just twiddle their thumbs.
And they will do it from level 1 right through to the end of the game. Unlike every other class that curves in or out of peak usefulness.
The main problem I have with HD is playing a CHARNAME Blade is so much fun that I often don't see need for him...
The biggest flaw I see with this reasoning is "Why not just use Jan instead?". Thief/Mage multis gain very similar, but better, advantages: - Blades cap out at 6th level spells, T/M can theoretically reach 9th level spells (plus more spell slots) - Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats - Blades have same Thief HLAs (plus Enhanced Bard Song, which is admittedly nice) as T/M, but T/M ALSO gains Mage HLAs. Spike Traps you say? Two can play this game! And Jan gets to wear Bard Gloves with UAI. - T/M has access to Mislead backstabs, Bard doesn't. - T/M has all the thief abilities, Blade only has cruddy Pick Pockets (and HLA traps, which technically count). - Blade with Fireshields + Mage protections is considered good? Jan with his AdventureWear + Cloak of Sewers (rat form) makes him impervious to physical damage, feel free to sit back and watch as Fire Giants and Drows punch themselves to death.
Yes, you can argue Offensive/Defensive Spin gives Blade more utility and thus more fun factor, but as @SomeSort pointed out in his detailed post, Blade takes a lot of micromanagement just to make them "decent" fighters. If you're in a good spot to sing as a Blade you might as well have your char plink away with bow. I usually have Jan spec in Shortbows, give him Tuigan's (later on Gesen's Bow) and let him plink away when I don't need arcane support. He usually ends up with pretty good damage contribution while staying out of harm's way.
... damn, Bards are SO much better in IWD 2 & NWN games.
- Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats
At the same level, but after level 10 a thief/mage will level at half the rate of a bard. You need to compare abilities at the same XP, not at the same level
One thing about Bards generally that I think a lot of people don't value is their ability to read scrolls and use wands, potions, and other items that might be restricted to others. I often end games with a huge amount of money and potions and wands I never use. Having a bard use these things up all the time and spending extra cast to keep stocked with these things makes them very useful with low effort - and frees up mages to do the things a Bard can't do.
The other things about Bards, and Blades in particular, is that yeah, much of the time they don't do much of anything. But much of the time they don't need to. When things do need to be tough they usually have enough tools to fix a problem of any sort though, be it becoming an exceptional tank, doing spell damage or spell defense strippers, or self buffing and smashing out quick damage.
They literally can be jack of all trades, and when they put the effort to it, a very very good jack.
There will be very few instances when HD or a CHARNAME bard can't do something useful, but there will be many situations when other characters just twiddle their thumbs.
And they will do it from level 1 right through to the end of the game. Unlike every other class that curves in or out of peak usefulness.
The main problem I have with HD is playing a CHARNAME Blade is so much fun that I often don't see need for him...
The biggest flaw I see with this reasoning is "Why not just use Jan instead?". Thief/Mage multis gain very similar, but better, advantages: - Blades cap out at 6th level spells, T/M can theoretically reach 9th level spells (plus more spell slots) - Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats - Blades have same Thief HLAs (plus Enhanced Bard Song, which is admittedly nice) as T/M, but T/M ALSO gains Mage HLAs. Spike Traps you say? Two can play this game! And Jan gets to wear Bard Gloves with UAI. - T/M has access to Mislead backstabs, Bard doesn't. - T/M has all the thief abilities, Blade only has cruddy Pick Pockets (and HLA traps, which technically count). - Blade with Fireshields + Mage protections is considered good? Jan with his AdventureWear + Cloak of Sewers (rat form) makes him impervious to physical damage, feel free to sit back and watch as Fire Giants and Drows punch themselves to death.
Yes, you can argue Offensive/Defensive Spin gives Blade more utility and thus more fun factor, but as @SomeSort pointed out in his detailed post, Blade takes a lot of micromanagement just to make them "decent" fighters. If you're in a good spot to sing as a Blade you might as well have your char plink away with bow. I usually have Jan spec in Shortbows, give him Tuigan's (later on Gesen's Bow) and let him plink away when I don't need arcane support. He usually ends up with pretty good damage contribution while staying out of harm's way.
... damn, Bards are SO much better in IWD 2 & NWN games.
HD has his own dexterity draining short sword. if he has a primary role, it is the role of tank killer.
- Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats
At the same level, but after level 10 a thief/mage will level at half the rate of a bard. You need to compare abilities at the same XP, not at the same level
yes. bards thac0 goes up about the same rate as the cleric/ranger multi. multis I found didn't get much better than HD at attacking until well into the 2 million range and it didn't take much more than some good equipment and offensive spin to get him there. Only the single class fighters and mages are signifigantly better than HD at what they do before the saga is 3/4 finished, and it's at that stage where the bards specialize in the cheese school of wizardry.
Viconia is a beast. Pair her with a mage with limited wish and she's the best "summoner" in the game. (Turn Undead + "I wish to be protected from undead right now" = 6 vampire summons.)
What! 6 Vampire summons?! That's freaking awesome! Thanks for that insight!
- Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats
At the same level, but after level 10 a thief/mage will level at half the rate of a bard. You need to compare abilities at the same XP, not at the same level
Indeed. I find these comparisons rather pointless. I mean seriously, HD with Melf's Minute Meteors and Offensive Spin is already like WTF-level ownage and the combo is available as early as BG1. How is Jan supposed to compare, exactly? Am I also supposed to give Jan two short swords and make him melee? How's that supposed to turn out with his lower level Stoneskin? In the same way, I'm not about to have HD just stand in the back and cast AoE buff/debuff spells or expect him to perform thieving activities like I would with Jan. That's not why you bring HD along.
And as far as late game is concerned, everyone has their cheese. Apparently the devs seem intent of nerfing everyone eventually, but for now everyone has access to some cheese. T/Ms cast Mislead and backstab, bards cast Mislead and with Enhanced Bard song generate 4 damage any time anyone in your team hits something. So if 3 people in your party can hit 10 attacks per round and those attacks land, your bard passively generates 120 damage per round just by being there. Just. By. Being. There. It's not wizard/sorcerer-level cheese by any stretch, even back when it stacked, but it's nothing to sneeze at either.
And the BG2 bard is absolutely more powerful than the (comparatively) gimped NWN version, though the IWD2 version comes pretty close. No cigar because BG2 is an epic setting with spells like Timestop, items like the Staff of Wizardry and spells like Protection from Magical Weapons, but ranged two-handed weapons + Luck + spells (like Shades) that scale all the way to max level come pretty close. The NWN2 version is potentially the most powerful of all the bards in IE/NWN series though, with abilities like Legionnaire's March aka AoE Tenser's Transformation(!) and Hymn of Requiem aka "prepare to eat massive damage while I heal my allies to full".
The biggest flaw I see with this reasoning is "Why not just use Jan instead?". Thief/Mage multis gain very similar, but better, advantages: - Blades cap out at 6th level spells, T/M can theoretically reach 9th level spells (plus more spell slots) - Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats - Blades have same Thief HLAs (plus Enhanced Bard Song, which is admittedly nice) as T/M, but T/M ALSO gains Mage HLAs. Spike Traps you say? Two can play this game! And Jan gets to wear Bard Gloves with UAI. - T/M has access to Mislead backstabs, Bard doesn't. - T/M has all the thief abilities, Blade only has cruddy Pick Pockets (and HLA traps, which technically count). - Blade with Fireshields + Mage protections is considered good? Jan with his AdventureWear + Cloak of Sewers (rat form) makes him impervious to physical damage, feel free to sit back and watch as Fire Giants and Drows punch themselves to death.
Yes, you can argue Offensive/Defensive Spin gives Blade more utility and thus more fun factor, but as @SomeSort pointed out in his detailed post, Blade takes a lot of micromanagement just to make them "decent" fighters. If you're in a good spot to sing as a Blade you might as well have your char plink away with bow. I usually have Jan spec in Shortbows, give him Tuigan's (later on Gesen's Bow) and let him plink away when I don't need arcane support. He usually ends up with pretty good damage contribution while staying out of harm's way.
... damn, Bards are SO much better in IWD 2 & NWN games.
Because Jan levels far lower. Compare them at the same point of the actual game, not on a sheet of paper.
- Blades cap out at level 6 spells, but for *much of the game* they will have similar or slightly behind spell levels, which they will cast at a higher level. - Blades have higher THACO consistently due to faster levelling, and minor other advantages. The spins significantly increases their relative THACO and damage in the early to mid game also. - EBS is nice an unique, and Blades can do nasty stuff with HLAs and spins and etc just like every other class. At this point of the game it's potential cheese everywhere. - Mislead backstabs are pretty much insignificant in terms of playing the game. Fun, but not significant. - Yes, Blade isn't a thief. - And HD can timestop trap and dex drain people. Lots of combos abound and they don't really have much do to with how good a blade is or isn't.
Blade's don't really take much micro. Most of the time they can just run around with Stoneskin and use spins. Sometimes they will use Blur and Image, or throw down with a transformation - but that's at the point Warriors are mirco chugging potions also.
Mages are far far more micro intensive on a fight to fight battle than blades, as Blades can just hit spin and smash. At around 1.5mil experience a warrior will have 3 better base thaco than a spinning blade. Yeah, the warrior will do more damage, but the blade won't be that far behind, and will be pretty hard to even touch. When they're all buffed up in full micro mode the Blade will be a demon.
Comments
- Blades cap out at 6th level spells, T/M can theoretically reach 9th level spells (plus more spell slots)
- Blades have exact same un-buffed THACO as T/M, same equipment restrictions (minus instruments, which I've never found particularly useful anyway) and very similar HP & stats
- Blades have same Thief HLAs (plus Enhanced Bard Song, which is admittedly nice) as T/M, but T/M ALSO gains Mage HLAs. Spike Traps you say? Two can play this game! And Jan gets to wear Bard Gloves with UAI.
- T/M has access to Mislead backstabs, Bard doesn't.
- T/M has all the thief abilities, Blade only has cruddy Pick Pockets (and HLA traps, which technically count).
- Blade with Fireshields + Mage protections is considered good? Jan with his AdventureWear + Cloak of Sewers (rat form) makes him impervious to physical damage, feel free to sit back and watch as Fire Giants and Drows punch themselves to death.
Yes, you can argue Offensive/Defensive Spin gives Blade more utility and thus more fun factor, but as @SomeSort pointed out in his detailed post, Blade takes a lot of micromanagement just to make them "decent" fighters. If you're in a good spot to sing as a Blade you might as well have your char plink away with bow.
I usually have Jan spec in Shortbows, give him Tuigan's (later on Gesen's Bow) and let him plink away when I don't need arcane support. He usually ends up with pretty good damage contribution while staying out of harm's way.
... damn, Bards are SO much better in IWD 2 & NWN games.
In the same way, I'm not about to have HD just stand in the back and cast AoE buff/debuff spells or expect him to perform thieving activities like I would with Jan. That's not why you bring HD along.
And as far as late game is concerned, everyone has their cheese. Apparently the devs seem intent of nerfing everyone eventually, but for now everyone has access to some cheese. T/Ms cast Mislead and backstab, bards cast Mislead and with Enhanced Bard song generate 4 damage any time anyone in your team hits something. So if 3 people in your party can hit 10 attacks per round and those attacks land, your bard passively generates 120 damage per round just by being there.
Just. By. Being. There.
It's not wizard/sorcerer-level cheese by any stretch, even back when it stacked, but it's nothing to sneeze at either.
And the BG2 bard is absolutely more powerful than the (comparatively) gimped NWN version, though the IWD2 version comes pretty close. No cigar because BG2 is an epic setting with spells like Timestop, items like the Staff of Wizardry and spells like Protection from Magical Weapons, but ranged two-handed weapons + Luck + spells (like Shades) that scale all the way to max level come pretty close.
The NWN2 version is potentially the most powerful of all the bards in IE/NWN series though, with abilities like Legionnaire's March aka AoE Tenser's Transformation(!) and Hymn of Requiem aka "prepare to eat massive damage while I heal my allies to full".
- Blades cap out at level 6 spells, but for *much of the game* they will have similar or slightly behind spell levels, which they will cast at a higher level.
- Blades have higher THACO consistently due to faster levelling, and minor other advantages. The spins significantly increases their relative THACO and damage in the early to mid game also.
- EBS is nice an unique, and Blades can do nasty stuff with HLAs and spins and etc just like every other class. At this point of the game it's potential cheese everywhere.
- Mislead backstabs are pretty much insignificant in terms of playing the game. Fun, but not significant.
- Yes, Blade isn't a thief.
- And HD can timestop trap and dex drain people. Lots of combos abound and they don't really have much do to with how good a blade is or isn't.
Blade's don't really take much micro. Most of the time they can just run around with Stoneskin and use spins. Sometimes they will use Blur and Image, or throw down with a transformation - but that's at the point Warriors are mirco chugging potions also.
Mages are far far more micro intensive on a fight to fight battle than blades, as Blades can just hit spin and smash. At around 1.5mil experience a warrior will have 3 better base thaco than a spinning blade. Yeah, the warrior will do more damage, but the blade won't be that far behind, and will be pretty hard to even touch. When they're all buffed up in full micro mode the Blade will be a demon.