What's the problem with Dynaheir?
Dougie
Member Posts: 34
I've read a few of the conversations about Dynaheir and whether there should or shouldn't be a solution to her presumed death. This is based very much on the fact that she was a favourite of many. However, the balance of opinion seems to be that this cannot be done because of the integrity of the storyline.
What is meant by integrity?
Is it plausability? If so we should remember that the context is not only a fictional story, but one based on magic, raised undead, and resurrected creatures of all shapes and sizes. Putting all of that to one side, there are still numerous possible explanations that would be more convincing than that of "Sarevok, didn't I kill you already?" (paraphrased)
Is it consistency with the facts? Well, the only evidence of Dynaheir's death is the testimony of Minsc. He may have been her faithful protector, but he also chooses his actions and values according to the direction of a minature giant space hamster. He has also just been released from a prison where Irenicus is known to have used illusion and deception as a part of his interrogation. Dynaheir could equally be in another area believing that Minsc has been killed.
Is it to do with rationale? She is a skilled wizard being pursued by an adversay (Edwin) who wants to kill her, she's been captured and held prisoner by gnolls, is now the subject of attention of Irenicus , who, we do know, has captured Minsc. If anyone had the ability and motive to disappear for a while it is Dynaheir. If it's possible that Dynaheir could imagine that Irenicus may torture Minsc, it would be in Minsc's best interest if he believed that she was dead.
Is it consistency of story line between BG1 and BG2? It can't be this either, as we would have to remove Jaheira, Minsc, Viconia, Ajantis, Edwin, Xzar from BG2, incase they were killed in any particular game of BG1, because of arguments of integrity.
Is it lack of precedent? Gandalf, as far as everyone in LOTR was concerned, was killed, he came back with a fantastic explanation, and every charater, reader and viewer accepted it because it was a fantsy context.
Is it potential impact on the programming of the game? As Dynaheir makes no appearance in BG2, it would be no more than creating a new character, but all of her biography is already prepared.
There seems to be no reason at all why Dynaheir could not be brought back, particluarly if she did not hold a role central to the main storyline. That way each individual player can decide on their own view of what right or wrong in the Baldur's Gate world.
Those preferring the consistency of their choices can choose to recruit her, while those who believe Minsc (or Boo) can ignore her and pretend she's not there.
What is meant by integrity?
Is it plausability? If so we should remember that the context is not only a fictional story, but one based on magic, raised undead, and resurrected creatures of all shapes and sizes. Putting all of that to one side, there are still numerous possible explanations that would be more convincing than that of "Sarevok, didn't I kill you already?" (paraphrased)
Is it consistency with the facts? Well, the only evidence of Dynaheir's death is the testimony of Minsc. He may have been her faithful protector, but he also chooses his actions and values according to the direction of a minature giant space hamster. He has also just been released from a prison where Irenicus is known to have used illusion and deception as a part of his interrogation. Dynaheir could equally be in another area believing that Minsc has been killed.
Is it to do with rationale? She is a skilled wizard being pursued by an adversay (Edwin) who wants to kill her, she's been captured and held prisoner by gnolls, is now the subject of attention of Irenicus , who, we do know, has captured Minsc. If anyone had the ability and motive to disappear for a while it is Dynaheir. If it's possible that Dynaheir could imagine that Irenicus may torture Minsc, it would be in Minsc's best interest if he believed that she was dead.
Is it consistency of story line between BG1 and BG2? It can't be this either, as we would have to remove Jaheira, Minsc, Viconia, Ajantis, Edwin, Xzar from BG2, incase they were killed in any particular game of BG1, because of arguments of integrity.
Is it lack of precedent? Gandalf, as far as everyone in LOTR was concerned, was killed, he came back with a fantastic explanation, and every charater, reader and viewer accepted it because it was a fantsy context.
Is it potential impact on the programming of the game? As Dynaheir makes no appearance in BG2, it would be no more than creating a new character, but all of her biography is already prepared.
There seems to be no reason at all why Dynaheir could not be brought back, particluarly if she did not hold a role central to the main storyline. That way each individual player can decide on their own view of what right or wrong in the Baldur's Gate world.
Those preferring the consistency of their choices can choose to recruit her, while those who believe Minsc (or Boo) can ignore her and pretend she's not there.
4
Comments
1) Creating new banters and side quests for Dynaheir
2) Eliminating Minsc's banters with Aerie--notably the ones where he takes her on as his witch
3) Changing the arc of Minsc's character as someone who has lost someone he cares about
4) Creating new banters between existing NPCs and Dynaheir, notably Edwin (he can't talk about how she's dead anymore)
The same problems arise if you bring back Khalid. The same problems also arise if you carry any other BG1 NPCs into BG2's first dungeon. The same problems arise if you remove any of the canon party from that same dungeon.
In order to account for all four of those issues, for every NPC from BG1, you would have to effectively write parallel stories where each one of those NPCs lived or died, was tortured by Irenicus or not, was a member of your party or not. It does change the game on a fundamental level, and development time constraints aside, it damages the integrity of the game that was originally released.
That's why Dynaheir has to remain dead.
I take your points, but I wasn't talking about Khalid, and I wasn't suggesting that she had to be installed with dialogues as fully developed as the others.
There are several players who simply want to be able to have the option to have her in their party and develop her character, not her storyline. So:
1) She doesn't need to have any additional banter or sidequests
2) She's a wizard and most likely would have some skills in illusions. A simple text from Dynaheir saying something like Serie can offer Minsc more than she ever could, so she's created an illusion to ensure he never recognises her. (That could be taken further with a revelation that she discussed the matter with Boo). But it's surely not beyond the wit of the average script writer to find an explanation.
3) The same.
4) Exactly the same scenario, she's disguised herself from Edwin, and this is the reason why she's allowing Minsc to continue believing that she's gone. She's watching Edwin, watch Minsc, to see if he'll lead him to her. But she's watching over Minsc at the same time.
So it is entirely possible, with a bit of imagination, for a new character to be created callen Dynaheir, with the old appearance and voiceset, and who explains in her own text how she is able to fit in.
No problem.
As I said, it is easy to explain the situation with a few lines of text. Minsc doesn't need to know, and Edwin doesn't need to know.
1) If she has no new banter or side quests, then why would you bother including her?
2) I don't see any reason for Dynaheir to abandon Minsc as a witch while still traveling with your group. Again, this isolates a character for no reason and disrupts continuity.
3) It would be cruel of Dynaheir to allow Minsc to mourn her death while she's alive and well, and not at all within her personality.
4) Again, if there are no new banters and no new side quests, and everyone else acts like she's not there, then what's the bloody point?
If you want a character called Dynaheir with the same voice set and abilities as she had in BG1, there are plenty of mods out there that will do this. Doing this with the enhanced edition would disrupt the story that was already written, and it would add literally nothing of value to the game.
1) What would it add and Why bother? It would add an option that varous people have asked for under a heading of Feature Requests.
2) Why would she? As suggested earlier, it could be for many reason, including to actually protect Minsc.
3) Unless she is actually protecting Minsc from harm.
4) What's the bloody point? (Calm down) Because people were asked what they wanted and that's what they said they wanted. The simple solution, to keep everyone happy, is to make it optional.
It would add nothing of value to you because you don't what the character, but it would clearly add value to those who have specifically requested this feature.
If you're going to introduce a new NPC, that NPC has to have substance, or it's just a voice set and a portrait on a generic character--and this can be accomplished just by starting a multiplayer and creating her yourself. The same goes for a character that was killed off. If you bring that character back, you have to make it work, and it has to work well, and it can't just be a generic "Oh, I didn't mention that I've been alive this whole time? Well, I have. But don't tell the other members of the party, or any other important NPC we run across. It's a secret to everybody."
Would I love an opportunity to see some of the BG1 NPCs go through BG2 and have their bones cracked and their brains rattled by Irenicus's plots and torments? Absolutely. But I wouldn't want them to just be thrown in without a paddle, parachute, or plotline.
The people wanting Dynaheir to come back are wanting her back because of her character, story, and personality. They want to see what would have come of her if she had stuck around and survived to the end of the game. They don't want a blank avatar for a ghost character that no one acknowledges.
And if you do want that, the modding community is very much alive and could probably get it done. But as far as making it a part of the game itself...no. I vehemently and vituperously disagree.
EDIT: If it sounds like I'm annoyed, it's because I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself to everyone who wants to put Edwin into the Irenicus dungeon, or to bring Khalid back from the dead, or to save Dynaheir and start a romance with her. There are far-reaching consequences that have to be considered before you change the game's canon, and I'm making it my job to inform people why this is not feasible.
But after a dozen or so times saying the same thing, my throat gets sore. I'm just a Kid on a Wall with a Hammer, after all. I can't be expected to fight ALL the windbags... [/Bastion reference]
Minsc has some dialogue about the death of Dynaheir, and he even starts having the same kind of relationship he had with her with a BG2 character... another "witch".
The totality of the impact on the game, other than making a new character with all that it includes, would be to find which of Minsc's dialogues need Dynaheir to be dead, and remove them or replace them in case he already met her in BG2. Apparently, that's considered too much work for the devs.
As for the fans opposing the idea, most of them are just nostalgia-fueled irrational people, who want EVERYTHING to be EXACTLY like they remember it.
They don't want new options, they don't want new dialogue, new characters... basically, they don't want an ENHANCED edition. They want the regular edition, because it's FAMILIAR. They just don't realize it.
Look. If you want to make a mod that brings Dynaheir back, go to town. But don't make it part of the game's canon. Things like this are why there's a contract prohibiting drastic changes to the content. Adding a new character? Totally cool. Significantly altering an existing character's entire arc? Totally not cool.
You're entitled to your view, but so is everyone else. You don't have to respond to every person that mentions Dynaheir coming back, every time they mention it, good for your health.
By exactly the same token, if Dynaheir was introduced to the game, you wouldn't have to interact with her or even acknowledge her, you could simply ignore her. That way you get your way and other people get their way.
As for the explanation, it wouldn't take long to work something out. "I am in hiding, but I will aid you as you once aided me", "Minsc must not know that I am alive, or else he will be in danger".
I agree with just about everything you say, too.
I still think it's possible for the NPC to self-explain.
Let me rephrase that slightly:
"You can make up all the fan fiction you want, but at the end of the day Sarevok died in BG1 and that's the story. Changing such a fundamental of the story at this point seems silly and in the case of Charname would ruin your characterisation."
I like the idea, but I don't think Trent Oster will like even more unpaid 4 a.m. shifts
I totally get that many people want Dynaheir to survive into BG2. She's a very evocative, interesting character; her story arc in BG1, and her relationship with Minsc, is powerful, despite its fairly minimal content; it's heartbreaking when you discover her death, and so it's a major emotional moment. I, and I think many people playing, were shocked by it and very much wished she could somehow have survived.
...and that's exactly why she should stay dead.
Edit: If it were done though, it would require something along the lines of the work required for an NPC mod... so I'm not saying it should be in the unmodded game. And as usual, mods have the obvious advantage - if folks don't like it, they needn't install it.
Sarevok is a special case. He was added in Throne of Bhaal as part of its initial release. His return was sort of contrived, but it also didn't alter the story, because the story was already written with him in it. Dynaheir was written out of the story. Every character around her changes because she's no longer alive. If you return her to life--and, worse, if you return her to life without allowing all those characters to acknowledge her return--then you're just bringing back a character for no reason.
The suggestion of bringing her back is such a "half assed way" was a response to the claims that she could not be brought back because of impact on the storyline, and to show that it could actually be done.
That you're suggesting that if she were to come back it the storylines would need some changes is at least progress, but still misses the point that people who have are asking for this NPC to return just want a good looking sorceress in their team, not a relationship with the character.
Why you wouldn't put this request in for a Modder, I do not know. Just because the game is being enhanced does not mean it's a chance for you to change the storyline. The original storyline was made already - and it's pretty great. If you want to change the game, use a mod. That's what they're there for, and the EE will make it all the easier to mod.
When characters die in games it often gives more depth to the game itself, the characters, and the surrounding character's relationships. In this case it certainly did, and I see no reason to change it.
Either way my solution is just one of many that writers can come up with.
The point I would say is this (and apologies if this has already be discussed, but I've only recently joined), BG1 and BG2 were never intended to run into each other and would be played as seperate entities. As such the player would make decisions about their party configuration at the start of the each game, only with a reference to that particular game. So it didn't matter that certain characters were killed at the start of BG2 because it didn't affect the gameplay; BG1 was over and BG2 was yet to begin.
Now though, with BGEE, BG1 and BG2 are bound together, and the decisions made at the start of BG1 are influenced by the knowledge of what happens at the start of BG2. So there is no point of wasting any time on Dynaheir (and by extension Minsc) or Khalid (and by extension Jaheira).
So, the point is, by allowing some way to bring back characters who were killed off when the two stories were distinct, we can preserve the value of those characters now that the two stories have become continous.
Obviously the storylines cannot be preserved if we just pretend that they weren't killed, but it could be resolved by some text that explains that they were believed to have been killed, and certain other NPCs must continue to believe that.
It is slightly awkwatd, but less so that 4, 5 or 6 NPCs in BG1 who now have pre-determined deaths that we can do nothing about. That's would not the same game as it was before.