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SoU, Dorna Dual-Wielding

It appears that the game is set up for For a to dual wield, but I don't think her feats are quite right. She has Ambidexterity and Dual Wield. Dual Wield, however, is the ranger version dependent upon class and light armor. When equipped with appropriately light weapons (even in light armor) she retains heavy penalties for dual wielding.

I'm guessing that she should have Two Weapon Fighting instead of Dual Wield. Does that sound right?

DerpCity

Comments

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 303
    edited January 2018
    Yeah, I noticed that too. Assuming she tries to get Improved Two Weapon Fighting through her package, she probably can't take it either. They should switch it over to the actual Two Weapon Fighting feat.

    I've also noticed something similar in the OC: Daelan Red-Tiger doesn't have Barbarian Speed or Simple Weapons as he should as a barbarian, and he doesn't seem to have Darkvision for being a half orc (the latter two are less important, but still). Dunno how they managed to screw that up, seeing how the first thing that happens when you make a creature of a particular class in the toolset is that it gives them all their class/racial feats. I'm sure some other henchmen are missing things, but I'm too lazy to check.

    Post edited by DerpCity on
  • BalkothBalkoth Member Posts: 147
    DerpCity said:

    I'm sure some other henchmen are missing things, but I'm too lazy to check.


    That's probably good for your sanity. For example, while we're on the subject of Daelen...

    1. At level 4, he'd get one feat from level 1 and a second feat for level 3. He has Dodge, Power Attack, Weapon Proficiency: Exotic, AND Two Weapon Fighting. Two extra feats.
    2. Later on he gets Ambidexterity despite only having 14 Dex.
    3. He never picks up Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    4. His end-game gear at level 14 is a Double Axe +3, Hide Armor +3, Belt of Fire Giant Strength, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, and Boots of Striding +5. That means he has an EMPTY ring slot, gloves slot, helmet, and cloak.

    Let's be frank here: trying to be a dual-wielding barbarian with an exotic weapon is a TERRIBLE idea. We'll imagine a more ideal (and legal) build for him...

    1 Weapon Proficiency: Exotic (this way he can use a Double Axe from level 1...even if he has MASSIVE penalties and really shouldn't use it)
    3 Two Weapon Fighting
    6 Ambidexterity
    9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    12 Weapon Focus: Double Axe

    Starting stats...

    STR: 18
    DEX: 15 (for Ambidexterity)
    CON: 14
    INT: 10
    WIS: 10
    CHA: 6

    Compared to his campaign version he starts with 2 more strength and 1 more dexterity at the cost of two 2 intelligence and 3 charisma. If you REALLY want him to have more charisma and intelligence you could drop strength to 16 and then get 12 int and 8 cha...but to get cha to 9 you have to start really sacrificing. But let's assume the first (better) set of stats to start.

    At level 1 he'll have 1 BAB + 4 STR - 4 TWF (light off-hand) = +1 AB for his main hand and then -3 AB for his offhand.

    Against an AC 12 enemy he'll do (0.5 * 8.5) + (0.3 * 6.5) = 6.2 damage per round on average. While if he just used a Greataxe he'd do (0.7 * 12.5) = 8.75 damage per round.

  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 303
    I thank you for taking a look at all the gripes with Daelan's implementation into the game for me. Kind of makes me unhappy they didn't take the time to give him a legitimate build. There are some things about your analysis I'd like to comment on, though.
    Balkoth said:

    Starting stats...

    STR: 18
    DEX: 15 (for Ambidexterity)
    CON: 14
    INT: 10
    WIS: 10
    CHA: 6

    Compared to his campaign version he starts with 2 more strength and 1 more dexterity at the cost of two 2 intelligence and 3 charisma. If you REALLY want him to have more charisma and intelligence you could drop strength to 16 and then get 12 int and 8 cha...but to get cha to 9 you have to start really sacrificing.

    I think you read Daelan's stats wrong. His level 4 variant (as thats the first one you get) has STR 19 (18 at level 1, presumably), DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 7, so assuming your stats represent a theoretical level 1 variant he'd just be losing 1 charisma and gaining 1 dex with your stat spread.

    However, I feel Daelan's low charisma doesn't represent him well. He suffers from Khelgar syndrome where he has 7 charisma but is written in a very likable manner: Khelgar being funny while Daelan is very polite, while 7 charisma implies that Khelgar wouldn't be funny and Daelan would be rather gruff. Granted, I never understood why Dwarves had -2 charisma, or what charisma is supposed to represent considering it seems to range from how good you look, your force of personality, the power of your faith (paladins, blackguards), and talent (sorcerers) all at the same time. If I had designed Daelan, though, I'd have probably lowered his level 1 STR to 17 and his CON to 12 so he could have 10 CHA, though that would reduce his effectiveness by a little bit.
    Balkoth said:

    At level 1 he'll have 1 BAB + 4 STR - 4 TWF (light off-hand) = +1 AB for his main hand and then -3 AB for his offhand.

    Although your analysis isn't wrong for a level 1 Daelan, his AB/DPS at level 1 doesn't really matter, all things considered, considering he is obtained at level 4, and he begins with a +1 Double Axe. Excluding the +1 double axe, at level 4 he'd have 4 BAB + 4 STR - 2 TWF (light off-hand) + 1 (+1 Doubleaxe) = +6 AB for his main hand, +2 AB for his offhand, +1 to each with his +1 double axe. A 4th level warrior with 16 strength would have +7 ab, so its not too shabby IMO. Besides, he's the only person who would make sense to use a double weapon (I really don't know why they shoehorned a two-bladed sword onto Sharwyn instead of just giving her a dagger and shield or something), so I'd rather he have one instead of a Greataxe.

    Regardless, I think we can both agree that henchmen should be improved when Beamdog goes to touch up the campaigns, if they look at them at all.

  • BalkothBalkoth Member Posts: 147
    DerpCity said:

    I think you read Daelan's stats wrong. His level 4 variant (as thats the first one you get) has STR 19 (18 at level 1, presumably), DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 7, so assuming your stats represent a theoretical level 1 variant he'd just be losing 1 charisma and gaining 1 dex with your stat spread.

    Whoops, I was reading the toolset's pre-racial stats instead of the column for post-racial adjustment. However, 18/14/14/10/10/7 isn't even a legal point-buy for a level 1 half-orc...you still have a point to spend.
    DerpCity said:

    Granted, I never understood why Dwarves had -2 charisma, or what charisma is supposed to represent considering it seems to range from how good you look, your force of personality, the power of your faith (paladins, blackguards), and talent (sorcerers) all at the same time.

    I think this is the larger problem. That said, keep in mind that charisma is merely your innate ability. A level 10 Cleric with 8 Charisma but 13 ranks in Persuade still has a Persuade of 12...much better than a level 1 Paladin with 4 ranks in persuade and 2 bonus from 14 Charisma. In other words, you can overcome a poor charisma with training, at least in some aspects.
    Balkoth said:

    Excluding the +1 double axe, at level 4 he'd have 4 BAB + 4 STR - 2 TWF (light off-hand) + 1 (+1 Doubleaxe) = +6 AB for his main hand, +2 AB for his offhand, +1 to each with his +1 double axe.

    So he has +6 (8.5)/+2 (6.5) with two feats compared to +8 (12.5). Against an AC 15 target that's (0.6*8.5+0.4*6.5) = 7.7 DPR with the double axe vs (0.7*12.5) = 8.75 with a greataxe. So he's spent two feats to do 12% less damage (and that figure gets much worse against anything with damage reduction).
    Balkoth said:

    Besides, he's the only person who would make sense to use a double weapon (I really don't know why they shoehorned a two-bladed sword onto Sharwyn instead of just giving her a dagger and shield or something), so I'd rather he have one instead of a Greataxe

    Sharwyn would get arcane spell failure from a shield in 3.0. Not until later editions that they could use light armor and a shield without suffering spell failure.

  • PracticalKatPracticalKat Member Posts: 7
    Agreed that henchman stats and feats need to be sorted out. And based on another thread, opponent stats etc. Then you need to play more tactically.
    Sharwyn is really impressive if you give her a bastard sword, a tower shield (at higher levels) and force her to equip a breastplate after buffing. A bit of a pain to manage, but she can really dish out the hurt then :)

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