alignment changes (evil switch in hell)
Senash
Member Posts: 405
If your aligment would stay the same during the whole BG series , that would be something that I could (not happily, but still) accept. The problem is, that it changes very rarely, without options to change it back somehow. If CHARNAME is a chaotic evil char, but plays as a saint, his/her aligment would still stay chaotic evil.
Not to mention that I think every evil character finished the game as "Neutral Evil", after the aligment change you receive in BG2:SoA at the trials (sacrifice/selfishness trial). Which is ridiculous, as Chaotic and Lawful Evils both changed aligment, even thogh the action they took made sense and was made according to their alignment.
Even if no big changes will be made in the alignment system, that particular issue should still be solved...
(Sorry if this issue was already raised somewhere, I couldn't find it)
Not to mention that I think every evil character finished the game as "Neutral Evil", after the aligment change you receive in BG2:SoA at the trials (sacrifice/selfishness trial). Which is ridiculous, as Chaotic and Lawful Evils both changed aligment, even thogh the action they took made sense and was made according to their alignment.
Even if no big changes will be made in the alignment system, that particular issue should still be solved...
(Sorry if this issue was already raised somewhere, I couldn't find it)
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Comments
I also would like what you propose but for the whole game to be affected, not just for one or few big choices. But it would have to be handled by many aspects of the game, quests, dialogues, actions. And even if implemented such modification would need to be properly tested and balanced. That's a lot more work than it sounds
The change of alignment in hell is totally reasonable. You are on the outer planes after all (the lower plane of abyss) and as i said in another topic, the actions made in the planes make a more deep change in those who practice them by the D&D lore.
Take a look on this thread http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/8693/#Comment_8693, follow looking the @Drugar post and my reply, they're offtopic there, but regardless they give a good view of what i'm saying here.
@kamuizin: The problem in the change of alignment was that if you took that option, your alignment changed to Neutral Evil, no matter what it was before (so a Chaotic or Lawful Evil also changed to Neutral Evil, which really didn't make any sense...). But if it really was fixed, as @Wisp says, then that point of mine is irrelevant.
My saint of a Kensai/Thief decided the benefits of Blackrazor in the fight against evil outweighed the fate of one random (possibly imaginary) genie and suddenly, he's Evil to the core, forever more.
Haven't played the mod yet that gives a Neutral option to the tests, but the current version reduces the alignment system to a binary choice in the most hamfisted way possible. You're Mother Theresa or, if you make one mistake, Dastardly McEvil the Blackhearted.
I'll buy the first modder to redo that entire area a pint of dwarven ale!
Learn with mass effect. The paragon/renegade options of that game would fit well with some changes in BG, the base of that system was to block/allow some talk options based on the level of paragon (good points actions) or renegate (ruthless points action).
Baldur's Gate could use the same system using the alignment+charisma (+reputation too maybe) variant to allow or not certain chat options on the game. This way never more a chaotic evil would say something as "we don't need a reward to help people" that is allowed actually.
Evil shouldnt equal stupidity, everyone wants to be a hero, right? Sarevok was the hero of the iron crisis,until his final motives where uncovered.
you dont get a CLEAR notification of the aligement switch.
and if like me you don't like sacrificying stat points to save a party member (you can ressurect)
you end up with that alignment without noticing it.
So later i ran the follow up expansion.
To my dismay i found that i was aligment >>really bad.
no save before that point... argh!
So, to get to what I think your point was, which is that evil people do sometimes lie to get ahead.... I agree, but the option to say something like this should be disallowed to an evil character in a system where alignment doesn't change (because without fluid alignment every action can just be an exploit of a flawed alignment system) unless it were along the lines of "[INT] We need no reward, our reward is simply seeing the faces of the people we've helped (lie)." or "[CHA] We couldn't possibly accept that, we were just happy to help (lie)." Basically, there would be an alignment and reputation check that would block the good options, but then with a high enough intelligence, or perhaps even charisma, a new option (the same line as the good option most likely but marked with "lie" or something afterward) would be opened up and if the stat check succeeded the player's reputation could possibly be raised. Obviously this would be just a small part of a larger system involving stat/reputation/alignment checks for a wide range of dialogues throughout the game, and so my idea here won't likely be implemented as it would be too much work.
Although, I believe it's the mod Rogue Rebalancing that adds something similar to this to the game whenever your thief gets caught in the act and the guards show up. There are options to get out of it based on different stat checks or a reputation check that are all clearly marked in the dialogue similar to the ideas mentioned above. The intelligent or charismatic thief can talk her way out of the transgression. A system like this for all characters and all encounters throughout the game would certainly encourage more balanced characters as well, since it would actually be useful for each individual to have balanced stats.
@Saberstorm Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me, my alignment shifted (either without a clear notification or else I just wasn't paying attention), and I didn't notice it for some time, and then I had no recent save to go back to, pretty frustrating.
@kamuizin I'll have to check out the details of Mass Effect's system before I can say whether I like the idea or not. From what you said of it it seems reasonable at least. I never really played the mass effect games, although several of my friends did. From what you stated, it at least sounds like it would be an improvement, but still far too limited for my liking. I think any reworking of the alignment system that specifically limits dialogue choices is going to cause problems unless the dialogue system is given an overhaul of its own in the form of regular stat checks, to finally give the stats non-combative purposes and also to help the deficits in the alignment system.
(I'm not saying it is appropriate for Baldur's gate. I'm just explaining it to you.)
You get Paragon points when you choose to resolve situation peacefully, or by non aggressive persuasion, or by being generous, or by directly protecting life in general.
You get Renegade points when you choose to resolve a situation using violence, or intimidation, or by being greedy, or by only caring about the end and not the mean.
The Paragon & Renegade levels are not dependent on each other.
If you gain Paragon points, you do not lose Renegade points.
If you gain Renegade points, you do not lose Paragon points.
That means you can practically max them both if you play enough. (Mass Effect allows you to play again the campaign with the same character at higher level and difficulty.)
Your Paragon level unlocks Paragon choices in dialogues, or Paragon actions during "quick time event".
Your Renegade level unlocks Renegade choices in dialogues, or Renegade actions during "quick time events".
Paragon or Renegade levels often allow you to resolve a situation more easily, or to simply resolve the situation at all, while otherwise the dialogue branches required to efficiently perform a quest are not unlocked.
There is also various perks related to Paragon and Renegade levels such as better price at merchants, or different color theme for the ending, etc...
I've simplified the description, because depending of which Mass Effect episode you play, the implementation is slightly different. But the general concept is the same.
In such system, the alignment can be calculated by the difference between the Paragon & Renegade levels.
Taking the fact that alignments on BG are fix, what i suggest is a middle term betwen the already existent dialogue behavior of the infinite engine games, aka Planescape: Torment for status check talks, with some changes based on mass effect paragon/renegate dialogue changes, that would cover the reputation variant.
While in Planescape: Torment the behavior rules the alignment, in Baldur's Gate the system will be subverted, here the alignment will rule the behavior (most).
So the three points of convergence here are the ALIGNMENT, STATS AND REPUTATION variants.
-> Alignment: rule personal behavior and reflex main char view of the outside world. The act begin with main char and is not a answer to an external motivation.
"I will do it's for free, i don't ask for rewards when i help people"
Alignments - *Good* best experience/reward; *Neutral* normal experience points and shoud have a status check to use (charisma/inteligence/wisdom > or = to X); *Evil* Can't be selected OR normal experience points and need status check to use (charisma/inteligence/wisdom) > or = to 2X)
"i will do it but there's something i need from you too (gold, help, information...etc...)"
Alignments - *Neutral* best experience and rewards; *Good* and *Evil* Normal experience/reward (more specific *Evil* with good reward and crap exp and *Good* with good experience and crap reward)
"So you need my help? Let's talk about compensation, shall we?"
Alignments - *Evil* Best experience/reward, *Neutral* normal experience points and shoud have a status check to use (charisma/inteligence/wisdom > or = to X), *Good*Can't be selected OR normal experience points and need status check to use (charisma/inteligence/wisdom) > or = to 2X)
-> Reputation: Rule the expectative of general NPCs trough the game about main char, a high reputation party should not receive an "assassinate someone quest" as a low reputation party should not receive an "save someone/escort someone quest". Status check (charisma check to pretend an act/inteligence check convince someone) should be able to counter some reputation locks (but not all).
-> Status: Rule the potential of each main char, as based on this better rewards, patchs and talk options leading to more experience gain should exist.
Ex:
A lawful good aligned character can use the option "I will do it's for free, i don't ask for rewards when i help people" to get the better experience points. But an 14+ inteligence character could say "I will do it's for free, i don't ask for rewards when i help people, but i don't think i'm able to face a so strong opponent so any help you can give will be much appreciated" shoud lead to better experience AND better reward.
With a release in this summer i agree that this implementation would be to hard to archieve in so few time.
(i still don't like the idea of DLCs, i REALLY hope they launch this as an patch or free DLC, but even if not would be something i hope to be done in the future).
Because It seems weird for example to have an initially Lawful character that keep performing unlawful action, to remain of Lawful alignment. He should progressively lose Ethical points, lowering its lawful status, then reaching Neutral and eventually Unlawful if it keeps at it.
Same with Moral points between Good and Evil.
That's the dynamic system Neverwinter Nights had implemented, even if the game made few different uses of it. You can get more details about the system: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Alignment
I always remember when my brother played BG2, he created evil character, took all the evil characters in game(as we now, there were only 3 evil characters in BG2 and so all of them were stronger than good ones) but tried to get the most from all the choices and end up being as good as me as a paladin. He just watched his reputation not to get over 18 or something so the NPCs won´t leave the party and he was fine. If stats checks or changing alignment won´t be implemeted, they should definitely make something with this.
Also I suggest they somehow explain or change how reputation is shown in your stats. Lots of people thought, that the lower the reputation is, the less you are known even though it means your are known as a bad one. So changing it from "0 to 20" to "-10 to 10" would be more understandable.
Even an evil character with a rich background story or personality can have some moments when he helps someone with no apparent ulterior motive whatsoever. It's role-playing. The point of the game, as I see it, is not really about collecting the most badass stuff in game and creating the strongest character, but to play your character and affect the world as you see fit.
The alignment system should be a reflection on your actions, but not necessarily limit them. As I understand CHA does have an impact on your choices in the game, there are some option which do not appear if you have low charisma, but I might be wrong. This is justified as your character wouldn't be able to convince someone, to play that certain role because he lacks the natural attributes to say or pull off something like that. Beign evil or good is a bit different though. Back to ME for example, you have to sacrifice and be the bad guy to save the most people. Or at least you believe that by acting harshly you will be able to save more people and do a greater good in the end. This doesn't make you evil.
Sure you can play totally against your alignment, but that's just your game, your game experience, which I frankly don't give a sh*t about. I would like to have all my options. I would choose the "evil" option with and evil char and vica versa most of the time of course. But there could be some instances when I would go, for my own personal well established reasons, with the opposite choice.
I totally support the clearer indication of aligment changes! In my first playthrough in BG2 I haven't noticed that my alignment had changed until ToB...
@Mathuzzz about your suggestion to make the repu system more clear. I don't think it's a bad idea, but not really necessary in my mind. But maybe that's just because when I played BG I almost always had the manual right beside me, and was always chacking, among other things, what are the effects of my reputation level
@Elys Thanks for posting the NWN alignment system
We would have 3 variants, that are Alignment, stats, reputation. thogeter those variants would create an system to adequate the interaction of the main char during the game. The nature of the variants are not mean to block options, but to adequate the experience and reward of each option to the player that respect the alignment of his main char.
If you want to make an evil main char that only do charity, you don't want freedom, in fact you don't even know what you want.
The reputation variant does not control what you do but how other NPCs react to you, if you want to control that you're not arguing for freedom but for absolute control. You're not the Dungeon Master here, you are the player, and the system above try to simulate the faithful system of a player to his alignment, raising or lowering rewards and experience. This is a thing that is done since the frist D&D, one of the pillars of roleplay (i know it, cos i had the black box of D&D with the paper icons and the dungeon map in cardboard, the one with the drwaven and the red dragon on the cover).
About the status variant, sorry but it's not even open to argues, the lack of status checks on the game chats, to me are bugs and lack of content. They exist in fact but very few banters on the game have status check, as the answer to soulafein question about the mind flayers where you can answer:
devourers" <*int 11*> "mind flayers" <*int 16*> "illithid".
Maybe they didn't had time to implement this on the original game, i hope they cover now this.
So to end, taking one of my talk examples posted before, you can be evil and use "I will do it's for free, i don't ask for rewards when i help people" answer, no problem IF you have an status check that allow that, but don't hope to get all the experience reward that a good aligned character would have, cos otherwise would not be an experience reward. There's no roleplay in this, in fact this IS A LACK OF ROLEPLAY.
First of all, I don't want to make ANY char (evil or good) who goes against his's alignment all the time. That's ridiculous and you certainly misunderstood me about this. IRL I'm a small time actor and character immersion is really important for me. I just want to have the option to go against it sometimes if I think that that choice would fit my charcter more. If your suggestion is to modify the rewards for the avaible options for solving a Q for example, I'm totally fine with that.
Secondly, I wasn't talking about reputation, and I'm well aware of twhat it represents, thank you
I'm not sure I follow you completely about the status checks (might be just because english is not my native languaage or my discrepancies about D&D, as in live role play I only played with an other RP system). If you mean INT or CHA check in conversations, we are on the same side again. As I just said: (E.g: not clever enough to solve a riddle, or doesn't have enough charisma to say a lie convincingly)
Role play is not just about good/evil/neutral. You make a character, what he likes, what frightens him, what makes himangry, what's important for him in life. Let him have some secrets, some habits. And when a choice option appears you try to put yourself into his skin and make the decision that he would make. Or, as I usually do with my first chars in every RPG, you put yourself in there and ask yourself what would you do in this situation. What I don't like is people who play like: "Yeah, my charcter is evil, so I kill everyone and pick the evil choice." (Or the same with good or a neutral, who just pick an evil choice because his last two options were good...)
The other thing is, that I'm not so much in favour of systems, which limit or control how you RP with your character. If you want really good immersion, you will make a choice that fits your character anyway. If not, well, first go and play something else, but if that gives you happiness in a game, that you can save everyone and sacrifice yourself as a chaotic evil guy, or chop off the head of an innocent child as a paladin... well, those ppl are entitled to have there own fun too (even though I'm against what they're doing), aren't they?