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Barbarian Weapon Mastery Please

QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
edited May 2014 in Feature Requests
It seems odd to me that Barbarians can only specialize. (Two pips **)

What do you all think of allowing Barbarians to achieve Mastery, that is, three pips? (***)

I feel like this would allow the kit to stand out a bit more than it currently does.
elminsterTressetDungeonnoobCrevsDaakFinaLfrontJuliusBorisovAnduinEdvinZaknafeinBaenreElrandirScooterlolienRAM021

Comments

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    It would be nice but I rather doubt it will change.
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Tbh honest, I've moded it so all warriors and swashbuckler can achieve mastery. Blades can achieve specialization. Got a great fun with that ;-)
    Quartzelminster
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    And Kensai shouldn't be able to get more then specialize in any kind of weapon than sword...
    ElrandirBalrog99
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @Edvin Guh. Gotta disagree. I dislike weapon proficiency restrictions based on class. It basically forces you into a certain role-play instead of letting you do your own thing. Dwarven Defender is an abomination of a class -- powerful, yes -- but an abomination nonetheless.
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    edited May 2014
    @Quartz‌
    Sure and why not allow mages using two-handed swords and full plate armors? :D

    Your first request was reasonable, Barbarians are born warriors and they should have appropriate skills.
    However, some limitations have a purpose, it regulates that certain class are not too strong.

    Right now, is Kensai class with worst working mechanics.
    For a start, should not be prohibited from wearing armor, but should lose all special skills if wear any armor (like all duals for mages and thieves). The question of weapons is highly speculative, but due to kensai fighting style, I find things like the using of clubs or hammers totally unsuitable for his class.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited May 2014
    I simply feel like they get totally overshadowed by Berserkers.

    It's not that I envy the Berserker kit; it's a dead boring kit that I never use. Press a button for immunity to everything whoOooOo!! On the other hand, Barbarian genuinely seems kind of underpowered. Rangers and Paladins give up Mastery, sure, but they also have a few spells and other such abilities. Barbarians get some cool bonuses but I wouldn't say they totally come into their own, you know? The d12 is sweet though; gives them a bit of an edge towards tanking. Until, of course, the abominable Dwarven Defender, but I pretend that doesn't exist.

    I enjoy Barbarian, regardless.
    JuliusBorisovFinaLfrontCrevsDaak
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244

    There is a very good role-playing reason why barbarians can't achieve weapon mastery. They simply don't have the discipline required to hone their skill with a weapon to that godly extent, because, well, they're barbarians. Undisciplined, dirty, pelt-wearing barbarians.

    You dont need discipline, if you want crush your enemies with club.
    Barbarians are actually only one who should be able use full power weapons like clubs.
    Dee said:

    @Edvin‌
    I'd actually be totally fine with letting mages use two-handed swords and heavy armor. They get a -5 penalty to any weapon they're not proficient in anyway, and armor prevents them from casting spells, so taking away the option to use those suboptimal pieces of equipment is a bit overkill from a design perspective.

    Well you see that you agree with me!
    Pure mage, or mage/something cant cast spell in any armor (Even mage with "Use All Items").
    Pure thief, or thief/something cant use thief skills, in better that Studded leather (even with "Use All Items").
    Kensai/thief with "Use All Items", CAN use all his skills and bonuses for not wearing armor even when wearing armor.

    Is not that a bit stupid?
    lolienRAM021
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    That's the point though. Thats why barbarians get a rage ability. They make up for actual skill with raw passion for battle, but it's somewhat exhausting and they can't do it very often. They're also built more around quick raiding and high mobility instead of standing and fighting, though their hard-living does make them very tough as well. Their combat skill is more a side effect of their rough lifestyle then actual training. (and depending on which book you use for your barbarian, they can't specialize at all if they're a stand-alone class, instead of the much different fighter kit version).

    And in all fairness....Specialization isn't implemented properly.

    ONLY true class fighters can go beyond specialization. It says so directly in the book that created the expanded proficiency chart (and there's a level requirement on it. Mastery requires at least lvl 9. High Mastery requires at least level 12, and Grand mastery requires at least lvl 15).

    Mastery and above is restricted only to true fighters, kits are unable to progress beyond specialization since their other abilities have already granted them increased flavor, while the plain fighter only gets enhanced specialization.

    And rangers, paladins, and multi-classed fighters don't specialization at all. They get expertise, which costs the game amount of proficiency but only gives the +1/2 attack, and not the +1 hit or +2 damage of normal specialization.

    Not only that, but Fighter>Class duals can no longer specialize after switching classes (though they retain any specialization they spent prior to dualing) since they're advancing only as their new class, while Class> Fighter can't specialize at all (though they can get expertise like a paladin or ranger), since specialization specifically requires a Single Class fighter are a requirement, and specialization is part of fighter advancement, not a class feature.

    ----

    And don't even get me started on whats wrong with the berserker...I've covered it several times already. Overpowered AND Under-penalized.
    QuartzJuliusBorisovEdvinDemivrgvs
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Quartz‌
    If you want an example of underpowered class it would be the Beastmaster, the ranger kit.

    Besides, Barbarians are powerfull in BG2 due to damage resistance. They are very good tanks.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    You mean an example of a class that is nearly perfectly adapted is the Beastmaster (The only fix required IMO is to remove find familar, and give them Animal Summoning I at lvl 4 as a special ability 1/day, Animal Summing II at lvl 8 as a special ability 1/day, and Animal Summoning 3 as special ability at 12 1/day, which more closely resembles their actual perk in PNP..they gain their animal companions sooner and can get more of them then other Rangers).

    The only class in BG that is better adapted is the Wild Mage, which is PnP-perfect.


    And as I always say, you fix whats wrong (the classes MORE POWERFUL (or in a handful cases (druids and bards in general), weaker) then they should be), not break something else that isn't.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I'm not even going to argue with you about difference between videogame and PnP again. Sorry.
    Quartz
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited August 2014
    Then stop trying to bring it up. If the game is infallible, then it's infallible, made by God's own hand in perfect form, working as intended in all it's horribly implemented, terribly designed glory.

    Since if you have zero frame of reference to compare to, nothing is wrong with it. It's just a different playstyle with different needs and goals.

    You can solo the game with any class. You can party the game as any class. All classes are therefore technically working as intended, just with occasionally vastly different playstyles.

    Otherwise they just need to remove all the classes except the Berserker or put a big disclaimer up on creation "If you pick anything besides the berserker you fail at life and should just stop playing now, because you are a noob that is trying to roleplay in a roleplaying game, fool".
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I see this conversation going nowhere productive. @ZanathKariashi‌ cool it with the Pen-and-Paper crusade; not only is it off-topic for this thread, but your way of discussing PnP adherence is and has always been antagonistic. I won't warn you again.
    QuartzRAM021
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The speed bonus is pretty darn nice as well, it's not trivial at all. As I mentioned in a thread yesterday, the BG Kits are as much defined by their weaknesses as their strengths.
    Quartz
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