End of round auto-pause doesn't seem to work

Alonso

Note: This is a copy of a bug I reported a few weeks ago. I'd like to get some feedback and know how it affects others.

I have selected the Auto Pause option to pause the game at the end of each round. However, it only pauses for some characters and not for others. It's not clear why sometimes it pauses and sometimes it doesn't.

Detailed example of the problem:

Description

1. Load the attached save.
2. Confirm that the option to auto pause at the end of each round is selected.
3. Exit the district and travel to the Bridge district.
4. You'll be waylaid by enemies along the way. Fight them.

Observed
I tried this twice. These are the number of times the game auto pauses at the end of each round for each character:

________1st time 2nd time
Minsc_____1__________1
Aerie_____4__________0
Alonso____3__________4
Jaheira___4__________3
Cat_______4__________3
Yoshimo___3__________2
Nalia_____4__________2

Expected
Same number of pauses for all the characters or a difference of one at most.

Anybody having a similar issue?

SethDavis

End of round has always been a bit misleading. The games don't actually maintain a round/turn order.

The end of round autopause instead fires when an action is complete (ie, all attacks are used up for that "round", a spell is cast, an item is used, etc) because that is what the engine cares about as a round.

There is also (I think) something in place that prevents pauses coming in immediately after you have unpaused.

So, if someone takes longer to get to someone or attacks more slowly, they will trigger fewer end of round autopauses.

Alonso

I'm afraid I got a bit lost. You're confirming that the auto-pause doesn't work, right?

lansounet

It would work if the game was really turn-based, in my experience it best works when you have done an action that starts the "round timer" like using an item or spells, and then you can attack while waiting for this timer before doing another "once-per-round action" right when it's available.

Alonso

Sorry, not following you very well here. Take it easy with me, I'm just a level 5 nerd

Anyway, I'm quite surprised that nobody else has said anything about this. Not just that, a quick google search reveals that nobody has said a thing about the end of round auto pause in any forum at all! Ever! I guess that means people don’t find it very useful.

I only started to use it a few weeks ago, when I got a basic understanding of how the round system works thanks to this great thread, and since then I find it very useful. It seems the only effective way of using the time since you finish casting a spell until you’re ready to cast another one. In that time you can move around or throw a projectile or two, which can be very useful. I wonder how other people do these things, or if they just ignore that timing.

mf2112

I usually only autopause on characters target is destroyed so I can pick a new target and spell cast so I can pick a new spell. I manage all combats so the others just pause unnecessarily for my taste.

Alonso

mf2112 said:

I manage all combats so the others just pause unnecessarily for my taste.

What do you mean? I auto pause a lot precisely because that allows me to manage all combats in as much detail as I want.

mf2112

Alonso said:

mf2112 said:

I manage all combats so the others just pause unnecessarily for my taste.

What do you mean? I auto pause a lot precisely because that allows me to manage all combats in as much detail as I want.

I usually run with 5-6 in the party, so for my 2-3 fighters, generally once I target them to melee on someone I let them go until that enemy is destroyed. I have my 1-2 backline missilers target individuals behind the front line like spellcasters, usually most fights don't have more than 1-2 enemy spellcasters so they each take one if necessary and stay on them until they go down, then help out the front liners. My mage and/or cleric (cleric is also an excellent slinger ) in the back will be casting damaging or debuffing spells so the autopause lets me select a new spell for next round.

When it works well, my fighters each have a target and combats will only pause once each round for me to pick a new spell, then I let it run. Frequently I don't try to cast much during combat past the first two rounds if I can get off a quick greater malison, then slow the next round with a total -8 save penalty, so I have my mage (Imoen or Edwin usually) use arrows or slings at that point as well. With a strength spell to bring them to 18/50 they hit a fair amount of the time and for decent damage sometimes.

I like to watch the combats play out more now. I used to pause a lot and obsess over every move to get everybody in the right places, but I enjoy letting it run even though I take a little more damage sometimes with some characters. Plus now they target mages more too so I have gotten a little less spell heavy during combat.

Alonso

Makes sense. Makes me wonder if I'm overcomplicating an already complicated enough game

mf2112

Some fights that obviously won't work as well. Giants are tough since they can bring you down to next to nothing in one round. I have been using haste more lately with my summons by using the ring of free action on my mage while moving the rest of the group away. I don't mind using haste if I know I am at the end of the day and can rest right after the last fight, but I don't like to haste first thing and then have to rest again right away.

Alonso

@SethDavis and @lansounet: After a lot of experimenting and discussing in the forums I think I managed to understand very roughly what you mean, but I really want to understand it well. Can you give us examples or clarify it in some way? Or, is there any piece of documentation where this is explained in detail? It seems so complicated.

SethDavis

It might help to read "end of round" as "action complete".

For example, casting a spell that should take one round will throw the autopause when the spell is fired. However, if there is something that needs to be done before the spell can be cast (ie. walking to the target for a touch spell) you would expect an autopause to fire before the spell is finished because some portion of that 6 second round was used walking. However, that's not what you get. The pause is still thrown when the spell is fired.

It's similar with attacking. When a character is told to attack they look at how many attacks per round they get and then start counting down as they attack. If for some reason they cannot process all of those attacks in 6 seconds you would expect an end of round, but the action is not complete so you do not pause. When they finish those attacks they start another attack action, which makes it look like they are continuously attacking and pausing every 6 seconds, when it is actually just a chain of actions being completed.

EDIT: I'm not 100% sure how it treats interrupted actions. For example, if a character gets 3 attacks per round, is ordered to attack and completes two of them, then is ordered to cast a spell, I think it will only pause when the spell is cast because the attack action was never completed.

mf2112

SethDavis said:

It might help to read "end of round" as "action complete".

For example, casting a spell that should take one round will throw the autopause when the spell is fired. However, if there is something that needs to be done before the spell can be cast (ie. walking to the target for a touch spell) you would expect an autopause to fire before the spell is finished because some portion of that 6 second round was used walking. However, that's not what you get. The pause is still thrown when the spell is fired.

It's similar with attacking. When a character is told to attack they look at how many attacks per round they get and then start counting down as they attack. If for some reason they cannot process all of those attacks in 6 seconds you would expect an end of round, but the action is not complete so you do not pause. When they finish those attacks they start another attack action, which makes it look like they are continuously attacking and pausing every 6 seconds, when it is actually just a chain of actions being completed.

EDIT: I'm not 100% sure how it treats interrupted actions. For example, if a character gets 3 attacks per round, is ordered to attack and completes two of them, then is ordered to cast a spell, I think it will only pause when the spell is cast because the attack action was never completed.

My testing indicates that it will pause halfway, so if I only have one arrow in the ammo slot and 2apr then logically firing one arrow should be halfway through the round. Autopause on weapon unusable does pause, then I choose to cast a spell and the casting begins immediately instead of waiting 2-3 seconds.

I guess though from what you are saying, the autopause from the weapon unusable might be effectively ending that round? Then the casting would start right away?

Alonso

SethDavis said:

The end of round autopause instead fires when an action is complete (ie, all attacks are used up for that "round", a spell is cast, an item is used, etc) because that is what the engine cares about as a round.

Yes, that's misleading indeed. Then what's the meaning of saying that a round lasts 6 seconds? If my mage casts a magic missile at the beginning of his round and the round ends when he's finished casting, then his round lasted 0.6 seconds, which is the time required to cast that spell.

This also poses the question of when a round starts. I imagine that when a round finishes, another one starts automatically. But then I don't understand why a mage has to wait some time between the moment she finishes casting her first spell and the moment she starts casting her second one. If the round ended when she finished casting the first one, I would expect that the next round starts immediately. But then she would be able to cast her second spell immediately, which is not the case. Why?

lansounet

@Alonso he was talking about a spell that takes 1 turn to cast in the first example, with only auto-pause on turn end, you would have the pause at the end of the cast because it's also end of round. I don't have much insight into this matter anyway, I just tried it a couple times long ago and it seemed to work as I described previously but there is apparently more to it and it's really confusing so I just don't use it and rely on other auto-pauses and gut feeling for when I'm able to perform a new action.

mf2112

I know one thing for sure out of this, I am going to stop wasting so much time with my spellcasters when I am casting fast spells. Instead of selecting another spell as I normally would have when my cast spell autopause triggers I will select an attack from now on.

SethDavis

Alonso said:

Then what's the meaning of saying that a round lasts 6 seconds?

Does the game mention the 6 second round anywhere? It may just be something someone used from actual pen and paper rules to try any make sense of it.

elminster

SethDavis said:

Alonso said:

Then what's the meaning of saying that a round lasts 6 seconds?

Does the game mention the 6 second round anywhere? It may just be something someone used from actual pen and paper rules to try any make sense of it.

The manual. Its main value is in knowing how long spells last.

Alonso

@SethDavis: This looks like the mother of all errors in the engine and the games which use it. If I'm getting it right, the word "round" has a meaning in the documentation and a different meaning in the game. In the documentation it's pretty simple, it just means "6 seconds". In the game, however, it's quite complicated. It is a period with a length that depends on what the character is doing. But I still don't know how long that period is, when it starts, and when it ends.

SethDavis

because it's not a period, it's an event as far as this autopause is concerned.

mf2112

SethDavis said:

because it's not a period, it's an event as far as this autopause is concerned.

So I cast a magic missile with spell cast autopause enabled. My "round" is one segment? 0.6 seconds? Then I tell char to fire one arrow, the only arrow in that ammo slot, autopause on weapon unusable and then cast another magic missile. My rounds are many segments then?

Alonso

SethDavis said:

because it's not a period, it's an event as far as this autopause is concerned.

I'm afraid that doesn't clarify much. Actually, it means the whole thing is even more contradictory than I thought. Do you know how this works? If so, can you explain it to us in a way that we can understand?

FinneousPJ

@Alonso You need to ask questions that help you understand. We cannot see into your mind and know what you need.

Alonso

Thank you, @FinneousPJ. So the question is...


BIG DRUM ROLL...


Wait for it...


******************************************************************************





What is a round?

mf2112

Unfortunately I am rounder than my wife says I should be.... Also, what action(s) and combinations of actions are supposed to be allowed during a single round?

joluv

Alonso said:

This looks like the mother of all errors in the engine and the games which use it.

It looks to me like a single awkwardly-named option. It's already been stated that "end of round" is a misnomer in the context of autopause, and that "action complete" would be more accurate. A round is six seconds.

FinneousPJ

@Alonso People already explained this multiple times for you.

Alonso

joluv said:

A round is six seconds.

Ah, my friend, I wish so bad you were right. However, according to SethDavis, who I believe is one of the game developers:

SethDavis said:

it's not a period, it's an event

So a round is certainly not six seconds (or 3, or 60), because six seconds is a period.

FinneousPJ said:

@Alonso People already explained this multiple times for you.

I'm afraid I can't find the post where somebody explained this idea that a round is an event rather than a period. I will be most grateful to you if you refresh my memory and remind where it is.

joluv

You omitted the relevant second half of that sentence.

There is an "end of round" event that is used for autopause. This is the "round" event that @SethDavis referred to. That is a misleading name for that event, though, and "action complete" would be better.

A round is six seconds.

Alonso

I'm not a native English speaker, so that might be the reason for the confusion here. I'm from Alcalá de Henares, Spain (hey there, all Baldur's Gate fans from Alcalá!) I apologize for my difficulties with the language. I'll try to explain what I said and what I understood. Please correct what I didn't say or understand properly.

Alonso said:

If I'm getting it right, the word "round" has a meaning in the documentation and a different meaning in the game. In the documentation it's pretty simple, it just means "6 seconds". In the game, however, it's quite complicated. It is a period with a length that depends on what the character is doing. But I still don't know how long that period is, when it starts, and when it ends.

In this paragraph, I was talking about the word "round". So when I said "I don't know how long that period is", I was talking about rounds, I meant "I don't know how long a round is".

Then Seth answered:

SethDavis said:

because it's not a period, it's an event as far as this autopause is concerned.

I understood that in this sentence the word "it" means "a round".
I understood that the expression "as far as this autopause is concerned" means "in the situations where this autopause is concerned" or "in the situations where this autopause is relevant".
Thus, the whole thing means "In the situations where this autopause is relevant a round is not a period, a round is an event". This means that in some situations a round is not a period (although it is possible that in other situations it is). Therefore it is not correct to just say that a round is six seconds because at least in some situations a round is not even a period.

Can you explain what I got wrong?

joluv

I honestly can't tell whether you're trying to understand or trying to prove something. Some language has been used in slightly imprecise ways here, so it's best not to dwell on legalistic parsing and looking for contradictions. Still, I'll try once more.

There are two separate concepts:

1. round: a six second period
2. end of round: an event that corresponds to a completed action

Somewhat confusingly, these two concepts don't have much to do with each other; end of round does not mean the end of a round. That's why it was suggested that calling the end of round event something else, like action complete, could make things clearer.

I don't think Seth meant that a round is ever an event; he meant that in the context of autopause, the relevant concept is the end of round event rather than the round period.

Does that help?