Why can I not roll a half-orc blackguard when there is a half-orc blackguard companion?

Rahlik

Just wondering why the restriction on this race combo when i create my character? There is one in game as a companion after all.

TJ_Hooker

Dorn's such a badass, he breaks all the rules.

Blave

NPCs often have stuff your character can't get. Examples: Special abilities (Branwen, Dynaheir...), Stats above 18 racial mod (Kagain), race-class combos that aren't possible otherwise (Dorn, Aerie) or potent magic items (Edwin).

Why do they have that stuff? No idea. Guess it makes them unique and more interesting.

Drugar

You have the option of optimising your stats in whatever way you wish, they have the ability to cheat they non-player asses off.

Rahlik

Yep I see your point, just a shame this option is not open for character creation, ahh well i wil lthink of another evil character then

PlasticGolem

In 2nd edition and earlier, character creation rules and restrictions apply to player characters only. NPCs can be anything the DM or designer wants. They don't represent what is and isn't possible in the game world, only what is and isn't allowed for player characters as a matter of policy.

Humanoid_Taifun

Blave said:

race-class combos that aren't possible otherwise (Dorn, Aerie)

I'll say it again. Aerie does not break race/class restriction rules. She is an Avariel.

Mornmagor

People perceive NPCs with special abilities as unique and interesting because of them.

I consider them a worthless addition. And i'm not talking about special abilities.

I am talking about the situation where you break racial restrictions, you just make the player wonder "If that guy is special, why can't i do the same?"

Many people would have a half-orc as their favorite race, if they can't be a blackguard because only humans can, that's ok.

And then you go and present to them Dorn, saying "Hey! Look what he is, you can't be like that!".

If you need to make a character special by having him break the rules in some way, then it means the character didn't have a lot of potential to be special in the first place.

Would anyone bother with Dorn if he didn't have 19 STR and if he wasn't a "sophisticated" half-orc who breaks the rules and is a Blackguard?

Would he have the same impact if he was a barbarian and not so sophisticated, breaking no rules?

I don't think so.

Uniqueness should come from their personality or story and banter/actions. If they need to break rules to be unique or interesting, well, you get the point.

I don't really think NPCs should have something special as abilities, extra stats, or racial combo breaks.

Quartz

NPCs breaking the rules:

Coran - 20 Dexterity
Dorn - Half-Orc with a Paladin kit
Kagain - 20 Constitution
Minsc - Illegally low Wisdom for a Ranger
Quayle - Illegally low Dexterity for an Illusionist. (Totally an oversight though since he's missing it by 1 point)
Aerie - Elf with Cleric/Mage kit. People do point out however that Avariel (Winged Elves) are allowed to be Cleric/Mages, so.
Anomen - Illegal dual-class. Wisdom 12? Pfft.
Haer'Dalis - 2 pips in Short Swords even though he's a bard.

Humanoid_Taifun

@Quartz Fair is fair, Minsc may have met the stat requirements a year ago.

Rpg_Avatar

Quartz said:

NPCs breaking the rules:

Coran - 20 Dexterity
Dorn - Half-Orc with a Paladin kit
Kagain - 20 Constitution
Minsc - Illegally low Wisdom for a Ranger
Quayle - Illegally low Dexterity for an Illusionist. (Totally an oversight though since he's missing it by 1 point)
Aerie - Elf with Cleric/Mage kit. People do point out however that Avariel (Winged Elves) are allowed to be Cleric/Mages, so.
Anomen - Illegal dual-class. Wisdom 12? Pfft.
Haer'Dalis - 2 pips in Short Swords even though he's a bard.

In at least 3 of those cases the weird stats/powers/class combo's are warrented.

Minc - One too many blows to the head. Its obvious from his animal companion and his dialogue he's not got all his marbles anymore
Aerie - As you mentioned , shes a winged elf. They are allowed that race combo
Haer'Dalis - is a Tiefling, people seem to forget that, so they wanted to make him special and gave him slightly different proficiencies to simulate this.
Anomen - He is actually a "legacy" member, much like frats who take someone just because their father was a member, plus its for plot reasons as well.

Quartz

Humanoid_Taifun said:

@Quartz Fair is fair, Minsc may have met the stat requirements a year ago.

Yup agreed.

Still he probably shouldn't be able to cast Priest spells. =P

Rpg_Avatar said:

In at least 3 of those cases the weird stats/powers/class combo's are warrented.

I never said that they weren't.

Archaos

You can change it with Shadowkeeper (if it even works with EE, that it is).

And you can be like Dorn and better, stat-wise. Tome of Strength = 19 STR. Tome of Constitution +1 = 19 Con.
And your guy is special. Bhaalspawn abilities and custom-tailored stats.

Psiven

Personally I am against any poorly justified restriction. Just because X isn't generally a Y doesn't mean this particular character shouldn't be! Why not have a half-orc paladin? Shadowkeeper it in (it does work with BG:EE, just needs a little setup or you can copy/paste across with a BG1/2 install).

I always kit my multi-class characters, they're just more interesting when they are more different/specialized. I find Dorn more interesting because of the "rule-breaking" while a half-orc barbarian would be pretty boring, run-of-the-mill stuff. It's not "needed" to be interesting, it simply automatically makes him more interesting.

Rahlik

I might try shadowkeeper to do that actually; It would be an encouragement for me to play an evil party at least. At present I just don't seem to be able to see past Human>Paladin>Kit. Allways played a paladin in all my playthrough's i have no idea why as in other games i do like variety....

Calmar

Archaos said:

You can change it with Shadowkeeper (if it even works with EE, that it is).

And you can be like Dorn and better, stat-wise. Tome of Strength = 19 STR. Tome of Constitution +1 = 19 Con.
And your guy is special. Bhaalspawn abilities and custom-tailored stats.

Yeah, usually characters don't get useful priest spells as spell-like abilities.

Blave

Humanoid_Taifun said:

I'll say it again. Aerie does not break race/class restriction rules. She is an Avariel.

Meh. I don't know ADnD rules beyond the IE-Games. Since there are no subraces in BG, she's breaking a rule WITHIN the game.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of racial class-restrictions and I'm glad later editions got rid of it.

IkMarc

If you want an overpowered fighter just make an Orc Kensai. Put a barkskin/ghost armor spell on it with your cleric/mage and it's practically god mode

IkMarc

Or go supercheesy and take two levels of thief for hide in shadows and backstabbing, then dual to fighter and specialize in quarter staff. Then pick up the TOSC staff +3 at the beginning and bam.

sandmanCCL

Mornmagor said:

Uniqueness should come from their personality or story and banter/actions. If they need to break rules to be unique or interesting, well, you get the point.

I don't really think NPCs should have something special as abilities, extra stats, or racial combo breaks.

We have RPGs which disprove your theory, though. People won't use a liability. A bad NPC, even written excellently, gets relegated to the sidelines because in a video game environment, people want to use an effective NPC before an interesting one.

How many people used Zevhran in Dragon Age: Origins? He joins super late, and doesn't fulfill a role you don't already have fulfilled in other party members because he can't even use rogue abilities well.

If the character doesn't bring something extra to the table, there is little incentive to use them over just making your own extra character.