[Request] NPC transition from ToSC to SoA

Lunever

Current behaviour:
When proceeding from ToSC to SoA and from SoA to ToB, all NPC stats are reset, albeit the data would be available in your savegame.

I always found the choice between Tutu and Trilogy difficult. While I liked the all-in-one-Trilogy approach, I didn't like that it skips the party and equipment reset when starting for SoA in Irenicus dungeon, so I mostly played Tutu+Tweaks. But how should EE handle this?

Desired behaviour:
My suggestion is for NPCs that are in BG1/ToSC as well as in SoA/TOB (no matter whether joinable or not), to always use the same, saved creature including all skills and XP and, with the exceptions of the main PC, Imoen, Jaheira and Minsc (the prisoners) also with their equipment. That's continuity without starting out to powerful in SoA. Same goes for SoA to ToB.

aXidal

I would like being able to import your NPCs, much like you import your main character between the games, so if for example Imoen is in my party and is, say a level 9 theif, when I complete BG1, she will still be that when i find her in BG2. Same for the other NPCs occuring in both of the games.

kamuizin

nice touch but will need some fix on the game, cos if you don't dual her to mage some NPC interactions in the game will become incorrect (volo refering to imoem as a archmage for example if you let her a pure thief the entire game)

Dee

There is a mod out there that gives Imoen some innate spell-like abilities, including Magic Missile, which resolves that inconsistency.

I would rather see Imoen as a thief with special abilities, which can be explained as part of her (SPOILER!) unique heritage (END SPOILER!), instead of forcing the player to assume that he dual-classed her sometime in BG1.

EDIT: Another thought - Make Imoen a Thief/Mage multiclass character. It breaks some PnP rules (she's human, after all), but it would resolve a lot of that issue for me.

Tanthalas

Ever since I played BG2 for the first time I've always dual-classed Imoen in BG1.

Zakeros

Well I'm not sure, but I bet it is said, that she dual'd her class after the final battle, besides, if she weren't mage, she won't be able to get to Spellhold etc, so, maybe just keeping her thief level and adding mage levels would be good

Dee

The trouble is that if you play through BG1 and she ends up a Thief 7, and then you start BG2 and she's a Thief 4 / Mage 3...well, that's not exactly how it happened, is it?

I'd be in favor of just giving her special abilities as she gains levels, kind of like how CharName gets special abilities from dreams. Model them from levels gained rather than plot points, and the internal consistency should stay the same, players who want Imoen to be a thief can keep her as a thief, and players who want her to be a mage can make her a mage.

Or maybe start her dual-classing when she goes with Irenicus, so that when you get her back she's got levels of mage on top of thief. It does feel a little disjointed to have her suddenly casting spells in BG2 when she's never been a spellcaster before.

Tanthalas

@Zakeros

If I'm not mitaken, you actually could get Imoen to a Mage8/Thief7 naturally in BG1.

I think there will always be a consistency problem with Imoen, no matter the story solution used to allow the user to keep her as a pure Thief. Overhaul could give her some kind of magical special ability to try and lessen the issue, but I think the player will always just have to accept the inconsistency.

Zakeros

@Tanthalas

I never dualed her in BG1, so I'm talking about having her as a pure thief. In BG2 she's lvl 7 Thief, but you can get more of here in BG1, at least I think so...

aXidal

I have one idea one how the problem with Imoen not being dual-classed could be solved. When you start BGII, Imoen keeps her theif level, and then dual-class and levels up to be one level higher as mage. If Imoen dual-classed to a mage prior to level 7, she gets the experince required to level up to level 7 as thief, but for her mage class. This way, you will keep Imoen as you had her in BGI without her accually getting nerfed in some aspects. Unless she is level 10, which is indeed the highest level possible for a thief (or any class for that matter) in Baldur's Gate Tales of the Sword Coast, her additional theif levels won't affect her maxium level as mage in ToB due to xp-cap. The main problem with this solution is that Imoen as a level 10/11 theif/mage would be a tad overpowered, but on the other hand, you will not get to keep her for very long, and when you finally reunite with her, this won't be a problem.

Communard

Trilogy does remove all the equipment and party members at the start of SoA, or at least all the versions I have ever played did...

nulspace

I agree with @Communard. Can you describe the difference that you encountered in BGT vs. Tutu? I've actually only played BGT, so I can't speak to the difference. In my most recent (ongoing) playthrough of BGT, both my party and my equipment were reset between ToSC and SoA.

edit: I see what you're saying now - you don't like that the NPCs are reset - you want them to keep their equipment and stats.

I can see how that would add continuity to the game, but it may introduce an "overpowered" element that would leave the early BG2 game (and potentially more of it) unbalanced.

BG2 was released in order to appeal to gamers that may not have played BG1 (like myself, initially!). If they're still being packaged as two separate games, then there's always the chance that a gamer will have BG2 installed without BG1, not allowing for NPC carry-over.

Lunever

Okay, but it does let you keep all characters. I found it rather interesting making the prison break with but 4 characters and later on meeting many new joinable NPCs, but also meet some old joinabke NPCs like Edwin as well as some non-joinable quest givers or opponents (like Xzar, Coran, Safana).

smeagolheart

Trilogy does remove all the equipment and party members at the start of SoA, or at least all the versions I have ever played did...

In years past I remember it crashing a lot in the transition but whenever I play it now, the transition goes as expected: party NPCs broken up and available through normal SOA means, all gold and equipment removed, reputation and journal reset. BGT works extremely well to me now.

Lunever

@nulspace: Tutu applies the BG2 engine to BG1/ToSC, but ends with the death of Sarevok. You can then import your character normally into BG2, but you don't need to reassign prificiencies and spells since the character already is in BG2 data format.

Lunever

Right, certainly Trilogy has improved too after I settled for Tutu. It was just an example anyway.
More important is the suggestion how EE should handle this.

DamageInc

I would be happy if all NPC's encountered had their character sheet as determined by the player in BG:EE, plus a few levels. I think the gear should be dropped for balance reasons. They should stick with the same idea that some 'choice' items are kept, but a small list at that. Mostly stuff from optional, difficult, quests. Give us the 'interesting' items, not the most powerful armor and weapons.

My bigger question is if they can remove the awkwardness of having Jaheira, Minsc, Khalid, and Dyanheir all in Chateau Irenicus even if I never met some/any of them.

nulspace

My bigger question is if they can remove the awkwardness of having Jaheira, Minsc, Khalid, and Dyanheir all in Chateau Irenicus even if I never met some/any of them.

I'm not actually sure you can get through the game without any of them being name-dropped, at least - you need to meet Imoen as per the story, and the same goes for Khalid/Jaheira. As for Minsc - are you able to progress through Nashkel without him speaking to you?

Communard

My bigger question is if they can remove the awkwardness of having Jaheira, Minsc, Khalid, and Dyanheir all in Chateau Irenicus even if I never met some/any of them.

I'm not actually sure you can get through the game without any of them being name-dropped, at least - you need to meet Imoen as per the story, and the same goes for Khalid/Jaheira. As for Minsc - are you able to progress through Nashkel without him speaking to you?

I've played games before where I've never met Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc or Dynaheir. The Friendly Arm in is not neccessary to the plot and you can even go there and not speak to K&J. Ditto for Minsc, he never actually approaches you.

DamageInc

My bigger question is if they can remove the awkwardness of having Jaheira, Minsc, Khalid, and Dyanheir all in Chateau Irenicus even if I never met some/any of them.

I'm not actually sure you can get through the game without any of them being name-dropped, at least - you need to meet Imoen as per the story, and the same goes for Khalid/Jaheira. As for Minsc - are you able to progress through Nashkel without him speaking to you?

Imoen you are definitely right. You do not ever have to go to speak with Minsc or Jaheira though. In my last play through I only ever stopped by the Friendly Arms to pick up the pants. I always thought it was strange that I got assaulted, found a letter on my dead foster Father that said "go to X", and I was supposed to run there. If I am roleplaying whatsoever and I find that note I immediately turn South under the presumption that my attackers searched him and read it.

Communard

Right, certainly Trilogy has improved too after I settled for Tutu. It was just an example anyway.
More important is the suggestion how EE should handle this.

I think it should handle it like Trilogy does, using the same stats the NPC had at the end of BG, but it obviously needs to be a bit more polished in terms of plot (I remember the first time I played Trilogy, I kept Imoen a straight thief, and was rather perplexed when she cast a magic missile in the cutscene in Wakueen's Promenade). I also think they should vary who is with you at the start of Irenicus' Dungeon depending on who was in your party, but that would obviously be a lot of work.

nulspace

@Communard, @DamageInc - I stand corrected! I always assumed one of the quest triggers was speaking with Jaheira/Khalid.

smeagolheart

I'm not actually sure you can get through the game without any of them being name-dropped, at least - you need to meet Imoen as per the story, and the same goes for Khalid/Jaheira. As for Minsc - are you able to progress through Nashkel without him speaking to you?

I always wondered where Imoen came from in chateau irenicus. Why wasn't she chained up or in a cage like everyone else? she just opens a door and breaks you out. How come she was free up in that room?

nulspace

@smeagolheart - I think if you go through her dialogue options, she explains how she broke out in a different part of the dungeon...forget the details though.

Tanthalas

Didn't she say something along the lines of "When the confusion started I picked the lock on my cage/cell"?

smeagolheart

eh must have missed it then, thanks

Tanthalas

@smeagolheart
Its entirely possible that I imagined that line though.

DamageInc

@Tanthalas

There's only one way to find out for sure...

smeagolheart

@DamageInc Timetravel to see what @Tanthalas was thinking 2 hours ago?

Lunever

Interesting thoughts - still, please focus on the main question. What shall the desired behaviour of EE be?
My vote is still for: Keep the stats for all NPCs, keep the equipment for non-prisoners. Clear the party at the beginning of the SoA chapter.

Tanthalas

I say they should keep stats but lose equipment.