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Bard's still suck

toshirotoshiro Member Posts: 113
edited December 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
The class itself is a good one, but there are still 2 flaws no armor and a lack of spells, you would think they would have fixed at least the lack of spells until you got to baldur's gate, which was why I never made Imoen a mage when it first came out.
Post edited by Jalily on
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Comments

  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    What do you mean by lack of spells? Like you can't find any? Doesn't the guy at High Hedge sell a bunch? I'm also not sure what you mean about armour, but if you're talking about lack of armour that bards can cast spells in, apparently they've added some elven chain in BG:EE.
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    TJ_Hooker said:

    apparently they've added some elven chain in BG:EE.

    Apparently it's bugged and doesn't drop in the Dorn encounter near the Nashkel Mines.

  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Metal_Hurlant said:

    TJ_Hooker said:

    apparently they've added some elven chain in BG:EE.

    Apparently it's bugged and doesn't drop in the Dorn encounter near the Nashkel Mines.

    Huh, that sucks if that's the case. Oh well, the armour spell is only 1 AC worse and has a long enough duration that you can pretty much have it up all the time.
  • toshirotoshiro Member Posts: 113
    True that the mage at highhedge has spells but depending on whether you dual class Imoen and have another mage like edwin until you get to baldur's gate they are pretty scarce, though in the case of a bard most of the spells I used were of a defensive nature since you have fewer spells you can cast
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    You do realize that with a 161 XP cap, a bard is able to hit level 10, which means that -
    Greater Malison + Glitterdust + Chromatic Orb = insta-kill everything that moves, right? :P

    Besides, armors are not needed at all. Level one spell armor is awesome and stacks with shield. Level 3 spell Ghost armor is even better! Level four spell Spirit Armor is a Full Plate Mail!

    So basically -
    Bard with 18 dexterity (AC6), a Ring of Protection +2 (AC4), Spirit Armor (AC-5), Blur (AC-8), Protection from Evil (AC-10), Improved Invisibility (AC -14), add Protection from Missiles/Shield and Mirror Images in conjunction to something like a Blade's Offensive spin... How is this not good enough?! XD
  • HooHoo Member Posts: 128
    Every spells have duration so the great effects only continue during short time. And even Bards can not memorize as much as mages, it means that Bards are hardly able to keep their armour as you mentioned.

    Frankly speaking, Bards are generally worse than F/M in aspect of combat in both BG1 and BG2, even in BGT.

    So... That's the Bards. It is OK as it is unless we consider improving Bards themselves like Rogue Rebalancing Mod did, I think that was not enough though.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    Availability of level 3+ arcane spells is indeed limited until you can access BG and the Sorcerous Sundries. But Bard kits are far from sucking. I can see some good use of the Blade or the Skald even in BG:EE.
  • Aegir_FellwoodAegir_Fellwood Member Posts: 81
    I agree that the bards armor restrictions is a lackluster, but it is what it is, and I don't think it's going to be changed.
    So has that elven chain drop bug been reported? ...and is there somewhere I can check?
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    edited December 2012
    Hoo said:

    Every spells have duration so the great effects only continue during short time. And even Bards can not memorize as much as mages, it means that Bards are hardly able to keep their armour as you mentioned.

    Frankly speaking, Bards are generally worse than F/M in aspect of combat in both BG1 and BG2, even in BGT.

    So... That's the Bards. It is OK as it is unless we consider improving Bards themselves like Rogue Rebalancing Mod did, I think that was not enough though.

    They are however the arcane class that levels up the fastest, meaning that they get the biggest advantage out of spells that improve with levels. A level 40 bard will have 20 layers of Stoneskin. TWENTY.

    A level 40 bard with a spell as simple as Flaming arrow deals 8d6 piercing + 32d6 fire damage. That's more than Abi Dalzim's Horrid wilting for you!

    Not to mention a level 40 bard's improved haste lasts for over 4 minutes, which is kind of a perk really.

    Same with Tenser's Transformation, lasts 4 minutes, lowers AC by 10, gets enough THAC0 bonus to get to 0 instantly, and gets +2 damage and to Hit bonus, as well as doubles his health.
    So a bard with maximum health rolls on 16 constitution gets to have 280 health? Seems nice...

    Low level bards aren't as good, true, but don't underestimate high level ones. They can dominate any fighter class through Stoneskin, Improved haste and Tenser.

    Edit : also, good thing they don't follow the actual rules, where Bards get access to 8th level mage spell. 40d8 damage for Abi Dalzim? Sounds nice :p
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    @Cheesebelly Keep in mind that maximum spellcaster level is 20.
  • DMCDMC Member Posts: 44
    Abel said:

    @Cheesebelly Keep in mind that maximum spellcaster level is 20.

    Ummm, where are you getting that? I've never seen that referenced in 1st or 2nd Ed AD&D rules or in BG series either.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Abel said:

    Keep in mind that maximum spellcaster level is 20.

    As far as I know, only ADHW is capped to level 20. The rest goes over.
  • szbszb Member Posts: 220
    I love bards, its one of my favourite class in BG and they are realy good in bg1 imo.

    -While they get less spells then mages, the spells they get are more powerfull because they will be higher level.
    -When a mage runs out of spells he can't do much besides standing around, my bard can still be an effective archer because the better thac0 progression.
    -If neither spells or shooting are effective, they can use bardsong to boost their allies or confuse the enemies.
    -Pickpocket is nice, frees up your thief to spend in other skills and there are quite a lot of good pickpocket targets in the game.
    -Having a high charisma leader is nice, why your main char? :-)

    For the lack of armour, I think if your using your bard in meele your doing it wrong. Your not a fighter, don't act like it. Staying in the back shooting and throwing spells are a lot more effective. Anyway you have the amour spell as others have pointed out that is pretty good.

    The main disadvangate is that they only get up to lvl6 spells, and thats not an issue for bg1.
  • VelkirVelkir Member Posts: 70
    Someone people cant make the diffrence between "not as good" and sucking....sucking would mean its so bad that its impossible to progress due to total lack of pretty much everything
  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    "Spells are implemented up to level 20 in BGII. Spells that level up will not increase in effectiveness after that, even if their description does not mention they are capped"

    Sorcerers.net
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    edited December 2012
    @DMC @Cheesebelly
    I'm redownloading BG:EE, but using ToB as a reference. Just give a look @ Stoneskin (SPWI408.SPL), the example you took.
    If you look @ the effects you can see there's data up to level 20 which gives 10 skins. Further up there's no data, so you will never get more than 10 skins. Just check Flame Arrow and Horrid Wilting. In all cases the effects do not scale up after level 20.
    I didn't check all spells, but my general understanding is that no spell can benefit from level 20+. I read it somewhere on the web too but I don't remember where or when. The reason was that spellcasters would get too powerful otherwise.
  • BillBill Member Posts: 18
    edited December 2012
    Bards:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ohk5Swy-04
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    edited December 2012
    @Abel : I'm not sure, I think Flaming Arrow *does* get to level 40, it's one of the few offensive spells that does (besides, there aren't many that benefit from damage/level)

    Spell descriptions like Stoneskin and Flaming Arrow however were written all before Throne of Bhaal and weren't modified (see Monk description) for higher levels for some reason, so we can't be sure outside of strong testing :P

    Still though, I think bards are awesome, potentially one of the best classes around, second to Cleric/Mages and Cleric/Thieves.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    @Cheesebelly Well, my answer will be the same but I guess in game testing would confirm.
    So I created a Bard level 40 in ToB with Flame Arrow. I used it against several creatures created via console. Each time the number of arrows launched resulting in damage was 8. Which means 4 for piercing damage and 4 for fire damage (level 20 effects). So, you see it is as I say.
    Again, I didn't check all spells but I believe it will be the same for every other one.
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    ITT: People who think bards "still" suck, implying they sucked to begin with.

    People who don't know how to utilize the class still can't utilize them well? Oh em eff gee. Color me shocked.
  • chickenhedchickenhed Member Posts: 208
    IchigoRXC said:

    "Spells are implemented up to level 20 in BGII. Spells that level up will not increase in effectiveness after that, even if their description does not mention they are capped"

    Sorcerers.net

    I had read this as well. @Cheesebelly , are you saying that is not the case? Just curious as I have not tested it myself!
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    There are plenty of mage spells that can be used for armor.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    @Aegir_Fellwood said:

    I agree that the bards armor restrictions is a lackluster, but it is what it is, and I don't think it's going to be changed.
    So has that elven chain drop bug been reported? ...and is there somewhere I can check?

    Trent mentioned it as something which needs to be fixed on his twitter feed. So yeah they know.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    It's not that Bards are *bad*. Sure they may have Thief THAC0 progression, no Set Snare, no Trapfinding, no Stealth, no Open Locks (Knock denies easy exp and wastes spell slots), and only a D6 HP, spells that cap at level 6, have a class feature which can be utterly replaced by a Remove Fear spell, are restricted to only one attack per round, cloth armour, denied the use of awesome, awesome robes and be unable to specialise in weapons but....

    ....

    What was I saying again?
  • FateAscendsFateAscends Member Posts: 63
    Last time I played a bard I just rocked the mithril chain+4 used mirror image a lot, and burned/froze everything with wands. A tough spot where I need to melee? Offensive, or defensive spin <3
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited December 2012
    Personally I stick with a ranged bard (jester in my case). I've got her with the bracers of archery and long bow of marksmanship and she is a great spell distrupter. Either by using glitterdust, MM, fireball, or her bow. Plus as a character she is one of the best dispel magic users in the game (inquisitor would do better in this regard, so would faldorn because of sheer number of spells available).
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Pantalion said:

    It's not that Bards are *bad*. Sure they may have Thief THAC0 progression, no Set Snare, no Trapfinding, no Stealth, no Open Locks (Knock denies easy exp and wastes spell slots), and only a D6 HP, spells that cap at level 6, have a class feature which can be utterly replaced by a Remove Fear spell, are restricted to only one attack per round, cloth armour, denied the use of awesome, awesome robes and be unable to specialise in weapons but....

    ....

    What was I saying again?

    Well once they start getting HLAs, they effectively get trapsetting, access to robes, and a song that isn't easily replaced. But then again, that takes over 3 million xp.
  • toshirotoshiro Member Posts: 113
    All interesting comments, while I do play as a blade in BG2 and TOB where they do rock, blades are more of a fighter than a bard, since their song never gets better, a skald as a companion would be better since they could concentrate on singing, technically they should get level 8 spells with the 3rd edition and higher rules
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    toshiro said:

    All interesting comments, while I do play as a blade in BG2 and TOB where they do rock, blades are more of a fighter than a bard, since their song never gets better, a skald as a companion would be better since they could concentrate on singing, technically they should get level 8 spells with the 3rd edition and higher rules

    Actually, I'm pretty sure that due to a bug/oversight the regular bard's song didn't improve with level either in vanilla.
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