The Monk

Dino

I was wondering about the appeal of the Monk in BGEE. Almost all of the monk advantages comes into effect post level cap. So basically you just get the disadvantages of the class. Or am I missing something?

Shin

Nah, it's pretty much true. They're late bloomers.

Shin

Though personally I often edit the monk class a little bit to alleviate this, and feel rather justified in doing so. Things I like to add are:

- Wisdom-based bonus to AC according to 3E
- Dexterity-based bonus to hitrolls similar to what strength does
- Attaching a dagger proficiency to the monk fist weapons and allowing monks to put 5 proficiency points into daggers, so they can essentially attain grand mastery in hand to hand combat. Also, as monk fists count as 2H weapons, I also allow monks to put 2 proficiency points in 2h style, allowing them easier criticals.

Dino

What the hell, why are fists consired 2H weapons?? Thats just stupid. Thats their trademark for gods sake... And they are only allowed to invest in 1H style.

kilroy_was_here

It's the same way in DnD 3E that the BG monk is based off of. All of the really cool abilties are backloaded. You have to suffer the pain to reap the glory.

At least they don't make you take a vow of silence.

Shin

It doesn't have any real effect in the game, the .ITM files just have the 2H flag. Even if you remove it though, monks still can't equip any other 2H weapons.

Hoo

Actually, we need to wait for Monk Revision or Monk Rebalancing Mod!

kilroy_was_here

On a totally unrelated note: Shadow Warrior was recently released on Gog.

'You no mess with Lo Wang!' :P

Dino

kilroy_was_here said:

On a totally unrelated note: Shadow Warrior was recently released on Gog.

'You no mess with Lo Wang!' :P

Ahaaah, thats classic

RedGuard

I'm just wondering. Can't you buff Monk characters with rings of protection and other magical items to keep them from dying too much?

Dee

The monk's fists being two-handed is partly to prevent players from equipping weapons in their off-hand and becoming some kind of "fist-and-dagger" warrior. But really, that's a silly reason to make the monk unable to use....

Wait. Wait wait. Wait wait WAIT.

WHAT IF...

The monk received as an ability at first level, the ability to adopt one of three stances: "Iron Fist" (two-handed style), "Flurry of Blows" (Two Weapon Style), and "Empty Hand" (Single Weapon Style).

Get rid of the Flurry of Blows ability as it is, and just make it so the monk's fist can be used as a single, two-handed, or double weapon--gaining bonus damage, bonus AC, or bonus attacks as appropriate. That would also allow the monk to benefit from the various fighting styles, which you could then allow him to take multiple proficiency points for.

kilroy_was_here

The spell 'armor' works wonders for them as well as mages. +4 to AC for as long as it lasts, which is a looong time.

sanfe75

I'm playing a monk with max difficulty, it's hard, I need to reload often, but it is funny, and I want an human monk with 19 in strenght!!! (with the manual). I spent a couple of days to obtain really high stats, but now I'm happy with my monk!

bigdogchris

2nd Edition D&D does not strive for some type of ultimate balance between classes like 3rd Edition. Each class was built for role playing in mind, each with strengths and weaknesses. For example, look at the Druid. They level very quickly compared to other priest classes but max out early, around level level 14. In D&D very few higher level Druids exist beyond level 14.

Monks start slow because they finish fast, like Mages. I don't have a problem with how low level Monks are implemented.

For non-power gamers and those who enjoy the roleplaying & PnP aspect of BG, check out my thread on Monk refreshing.

Shin

@Aosaw Not a bad idea, though the implementation seems somewhat tricky. Removal of the 2H flag might have the fist work as a single weapon (though I haven't tested). However, the flurry style would have to both add an attack and negate the bonus of the 2H and single-weapon styles. Not sure if there's any way to simulate dual wielding without actually equipping an OH weapon, something the monk seems hardcoded not to do.

Dee

The trouble, as I see it, is that at low levels monks aren't just weak--they're bad at their designed role. A monk is designed to be able to use his fists as weapons, but his AC at low levels is so poor that he's better off either wielding a single melee weapon (to benefit from Single Weapon Style) or wielding a sling to stay away from melee altogether.

And at high levels, the monk is so powerful that he makes most equipment just plain obsolete.

@Shin
It wouldn't be difficult. For Flurry of Blows, You'd just equip an off-hand single fist weapon with the same effects as the main-hand single fist, and let the two-weapon penalties apply as normal. For the iron fist, just equip the two-handed fist weapon that already exists. For the empty hand, just place a single fist in the main hand slot and equip it.

In fact, what I would say is that the monk should receive a free pip in all three fight styles (since fighting styles is kind of his thing, even if he currently doesn't have it), which would make the ability actually beneficial right from level 1, without being so powerful as to dominate the battlefield. You can limit the class to just a single pip at first level so that it feels like a progression over time as they put more pips in each style, which would also help to keep it balanced.

It simplifies the class using existing mechanics and levels out the monk's progression.

Dino

bigdogchris said:

Monks start slow because they finish fast, like Mages. I don't have a problem with how low level Monks are implemented.

If it meant having to wait until lvl 4 or 5, sure. Problem is, they *never* finish in BGEE. And in BG2, you can start at lvl 7 or whatever, so there really is no reason to play a monk in BG1. Unless you are a masochist.

junk11

if you make monk fist as one of the melee weapon tag and grant grand mastery
then u actually get some kind of Flurry of blows feat like 3E if u invest up to 5 plus more
(damn it..so easy..why did i spend time modified monk remix's flurry of blows in BGT, when i need is to change few column values..)
and with 2 handed weapon style.. u get the similar 3e crit range..

I would say that boost monk class a lot

Shin

@Aosaw Again, haven't tested, but I'm not convinced it would be that easy without externalization. The monk fist weapon progression is hardcoded, and even if you change them to become de-equippable I'm not sure you could put one in the OH.

@junk11 Not quite that easy, monks don't get extra attacks for proficiency as they aren't fighters (but they do get increased hand to hand attacks). Unless that too was externalized I think we'd need a ToB-like exe alteration to enable it.

bigdogchris

I'm going to be blunt here. Monks appear unbalanced in BG to some people because of 4 reasons:

1 - The way people play
2- Overpowered items
3- People don't know what Monks are
4- D&D isn't just about combat.

1) When you min/max other characters and metagame to get perfect combinations of weapon proficiencies and combat styles, yes the Monk falls behind because it doesn't have that. Monks are on the same THAC0 table as Fighters. If you play the game without min/maxing or putting 18 in all your primary stats for other classes, Monks are not that much weaker. So before you guys complain about Monks, look at yourself and how you're playing.

2) Other classes do receive very good weapons and armor which further adds insult to injury. That's not a Monk problem, it's 'overpowered other classes' problem.

3) Monks are not fighters or rangers or other high damage classes. They are a warrior priest. They have combat capability between a priest and warrior. They start weak but eventually train to become a 'perfect self' and eventually become powerful.

4) D&D has combat, but it's not the only consideration when classes are designed.The focus here is on role playing, not what works best in combat.

If Overhaul revamped Monks to put them on par against other classes, they would be drastically individually overpowered.

Dee

@Shin I'll take a look when I get home tonight. I think it should be as simple as editing the .itm file in NearInfinity. You'd have to create some new abilities to change the equipping mechanism, but it shouldn't be difficult.

I'll let you know what I find out.

Dino

bigdogchris said:

If Overhaul revamped Monks to put them on par against other classes, they would be drastically individually overpowered.

On par... Individually overpowered...
That sounds contradictory to me.


You think a Fighter is overpowered because of his ability to wear armor and focus on certain weapons?

Do I not play the intended way if I roll a Str 18 Fighter and use the same weapon as a specialize in?

junk11

@Shin
ah true, forgot about that...o well.. if i really want to do it, i can just add attack per round effects on fist item..

o well..but monk isn't that hard to play at low level in bgee, with less monster spawn at low level in BGEE
i don't really use range weapon for my monk all the time like i used to in BGT
I can carry katana just fine, still can use stunning fist with melee weapon anyway in BG

it's indeed a difficult path to master fist...,
but before you know how to use your body as weapon, you need learn what is and how to swing a weapon...
o wait...or is it other way around..?

Dee

@bigdogchris
One more thing--if you don't think the monk should be rebalanced, why on earth did you create a feature request calling for numerous elements of the class to be reworked, rebalanced, or changed?

bigdogchris

Dino said:

bigdogchris said:

If Overhaul revamped Monks to put them on par against other classes, they would be drastically individually overpowered.

On par... Individually overpowered...
That sounds contradictory to me.

Individually as in by themselves. No equipment required but equal to classes with equipment? Monks would be a walking hoss of power, which at low levels they are not.

Aosaw said:

@bigdogchris
One more thing--if you don't think the monk should be rebalanced, why on earth did you create a feature request calling for numerous elements of the class to be reworked, rebalanced, or changed?

PnP rebalancing You've read it enough. And as I said, it may be better off as a PnP mod.

Vuki

I have found another possibility to rebalance monk. If I understand properly monk fist is count as a two-handed weapon. How about if we allow monk to put a star on two-handed weapon proficiency? That would make his fists to make +1 damage and -2 speed. Alternatively if fists are made one-handed weapon then no need to modify anything else and monk gets -1 to AC and can make critical damage on 19-20. I think the second option fits better to the class.

I do not think that it is good idea to give the monk the possibility to use a weapon in the left hand while he is using his unarmed attack.

Dee

@Vuki What you describe is actually exactly what I proposed above--allowing the monk to select a "stance" that would cause his fist to either be treated as a two-handed, single, or double weapon, thus granting the benefits of one of the three different fighting styles as appropriate.

I'd suggest this in lieu of the current Flurry of Blows ability, since two-weapon style AND flurry would be more than a little overpowered.

Dino

Vuki said:

I have found another possibility to rebalance monk. If I understand properly monk fist is count as a two-handed weapon. How about if we allow monk to put a star on two-handed weapon proficiency? That would make his fists to make +1 damage and -2 speed. Alternatively if fists are made one-handed weapon then no need to modify anything else and monk gets -1 to AC and can make critical damage on 19-20. I think the second option fits better to the class.

I do not think that it is good idea to give the monk the possibility to use a weapon in the left hand while he is using his unarmed attack.

Agreed, that would redeem much.

Vuki

Aosaw said:

@Vuki What you describe is actually exactly what I proposed above--allowing the monk to select a "stance" that would cause his fist to either be treated as a two-handed, single, or double weapon, thus granting the benefits of one of the three different fighting styles as appropriate.

I'd suggest this in lieu of the current Flurry of Blows ability, since two-weapon style AND flurry would be more than a little overpowered.

You are right, I misseg this info. I vote for the single weapon style because that fits the best to the monk.

Dee

I agree--and that's what I would be using too. But giving the player the choice to customize how he fights would make the class more interesting without making it more powerful at higher levels, and still give it the small boost necessary to make the early game playable.

AlexRmF

monks need an upgrade in BG:EE... that's very clear to me with Rasaad in my party and that guy even has those nice boots that lower his AC... I don't even wanna think about playing a monk in BG:EE until something is done to give them more combat prowess or special items for monks are added in order to balance that shortcoming.
the fists specialization sounds promising