Avenger and Dual-Class Mechanics
Kyuu
Member Posts: 8
Hello all.
I have a couple questions I'm hoping I can get a little help with. First is regarding dual-class mechanics; specifically, how class and class kit limitations work when dual-classing. I've looked around at some sites that explain dual-classing, but they don't really seem to get into the details I'm looking for.
For example, say I start as a Wizard Slayer and later dual-class into a Ranger. Now, Wizard Slayers can't wear magical items. What happens when I dual-class into Ranger? Can I still not wear magic items? Am I able to wear magical items, but then the WS disadvantage kicks in when my Ranger level surpasses the WS level? Am I able to forevermore wear magical items after picking up Ranger as my second class?
Also, how do the proficiency points work? Should I avoid putting proficiency points in the same weapons and fighting styles when I dual-class to Ranger since they'll be redundant points that I'll effectively lose?
Finally, the Avenger. I want to try this class (kit) out, but I'm a little unsure. The shapeshifting, from what I've gathered, is useless against the really tough enemies that require +1/+2/+3/+4 to hurt. Does that make the Avenger basically a spellcasting druid with a few mage spells late-game? Would there be any advantage to dual-classing with an Avenger? CAN you even dual-class from an Avenger?
Thanks in advance!
I have a couple questions I'm hoping I can get a little help with. First is regarding dual-class mechanics; specifically, how class and class kit limitations work when dual-classing. I've looked around at some sites that explain dual-classing, but they don't really seem to get into the details I'm looking for.
For example, say I start as a Wizard Slayer and later dual-class into a Ranger. Now, Wizard Slayers can't wear magical items. What happens when I dual-class into Ranger? Can I still not wear magic items? Am I able to wear magical items, but then the WS disadvantage kicks in when my Ranger level surpasses the WS level? Am I able to forevermore wear magical items after picking up Ranger as my second class?
Also, how do the proficiency points work? Should I avoid putting proficiency points in the same weapons and fighting styles when I dual-class to Ranger since they'll be redundant points that I'll effectively lose?
Finally, the Avenger. I want to try this class (kit) out, but I'm a little unsure. The shapeshifting, from what I've gathered, is useless against the really tough enemies that require +1/+2/+3/+4 to hurt. Does that make the Avenger basically a spellcasting druid with a few mage spells late-game? Would there be any advantage to dual-classing with an Avenger? CAN you even dual-class from an Avenger?
Thanks in advance!
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Comments
In short:
Any dual-class combination must also be a legal multi-class combination. Your example of wizard slayer/ranger is impossible therefore as there is no fighter/ranger multi-class.
When you dual-class away from a kit that has penalties (wizard slayer being unable to use magic items, kensai being unable to equip any armor, beast masters being unable to use metal weapons), those penalties remain even before you regain your class.
Generally speaking, weapons are restrictive while armors are inclusive. That I mean by that is any multi-class cleric can still only use cleric weapons, while a mage or druid multi-classed with fighter could then use heavy armors.
Avengers are amazing. Shapeshifting in general tapers off in usefulness toward the very tail end of the saga, but by then you get the epic druid shifting feats. Don't worry about end-game! It doesn't matter what you roll, you'll be ludicrously powerful in Throne of Bhaal. Through all of BG1, Avenger forms are borderline overpowered.
And you can dual-class from avenger into fighter, but you have to get your base strength to 17 in order to do it and you also need at least 15 wis/cha. I don't really see the point to doing that, however, because if you want to melee people you're better off as a sword spider, and leveling up spells typically gains you more power in the long run that ranking up melee ability.
Back on topic:
1) It is my understanding that the weaknesses of the kit will remain when the class dualled into surpasses the first class by one level. This is why a common powergaming strategy is to dual class in a way that both the first class and second class have overlapping weaknesses, like a Kensai->Mage (neither can wear armor) or have abilities in one class that can eliminate the weaknesses of the other, like a Kensai->Thief ( the thief HLA Use Any Item supercedes Kensai restrictions).
2) Weapon proficiency pips added by a dual class character in the stage of regaining the levels of the first class do not add cumulatively with those already added by the first class. For example, if a Kensai puts 3 pips in longswords, duals to thief, adds another pip to longswords and then regains kensai levels, there will 3 pips. If two were put in as Kensai and one by thief before the levels are regained, two will be there. Pips added to other weapons will remain, though. Pips added to a weapon type or fighting style during the regaining stage in which pips were added to in the first class, the higher count of those two stages will be the outcome when levels are regained. Likewise, if a thieft puts one pip in daggers, duals to fighter, puts 2 pips in daggers, then regains the thieft levels, there will be 2 pips at the regained stage. Sorry for the mouthful.
3) What sandmanCCL said...
With exception to kits that restrict armor, a dual or multi can use the highest level of armor any of their classes could use. However, mages still can't cast spells in armor (robes are clothing, not armor), nor can thieves use their abilities in anything above studded leather, with exception to elven chainmail which allows both (some suits of armor are elven chain but don't specifically mention that they are or that you can cast spells..all elven chain armor have a dark metallic green color when worn, if you aren't sure). Also there are a few armors in the sequel that have extremely high armor amounts but the game considers leather for armor restriction purposes.
With exception to part druids, clerics, or kits with weapon restrictions, duals/multis can use all weapon types available to any of their classes
And yes, when dual-classing with kits, you keep any penalties the class had forever, even when it's inactive. So, dual-class a Kensai into a thief and you can't wear any armor or bracers, or use most ranged weapons ever again (unless you hit epic levels and get the thief's Use any item ability which negates all usage restrictions except minimum strength). While also, if you dual from a druid or cleric (rarely ever happens) you would only be able to put points in their allowed weapons that the new class can use. A cleric dualed into a mage can only put points in quarterstaff and sling and nothing else, till their cleric abilities come back and they could put additional points in cleric weapons.
And you're correct, proficiencies don't stack, so try and stagger your points so you're not wasting anything.
My questions are answered, in any case. Thanks for the help!
And dual'ing a fighter into a ranger would be a waste anyway. The only thing a fighter gets that a ranger doesn't is GM..which while nice is hardly a loss. They get GM mostly because that's ALL they get. The other warrior types get spells, or other perks to compensate their loss of GM.
Basically, if one of the two classes is a fighter, start with that. If one of the two classes is thief and the other is NOT fighter, start with thief. Put the casting class second and win. Dual classing casters typically don't work as well as multi-classing the same two classes.