Jester song

szb

There has been a lot of discussion about this already but I made a new thread to try and clear it up.

Manual description: "...they must save vs spells with a -4 penalty..."
In game description: "...they must save vs spells with a +4 penalty..."



Unless wild dogs have some bonus to save vs spells (I don't think so) it seems that the in game description is correct and +4 penalty is applied, othervise a roll of 22 would not be possible on the save.

Abel

Yes, in any case it's a penalty.

elminster

Thank you for visually demonstrating this change.

badbromance

Were are all the Jester haters now?

tyl998

I am still confused about how saving throw numbers work. In third edition, the higher your saves, the better. If I get to make a saving throw with ANY sort of bonus, I am happy.

In this case, the wolves making a save at a +4 bonus, does it mean it is EASIER for the wolves to make the save?

TJ_Hooker

Yeah, I'm with @tyl998, if the modifier increased the dogs saving throw roll, how is it a penalty?

ZanathKariashi

Yeah, not sure about that manual I think they're trying to say the song sucks, but weren't sure how to say it, since most people would see bonus, and be like yay it's better when it in fact sucks. The confusion effect only updates once per round at the beginning and is therefore waste during the first round confused, you have to confuse the target successfully twice in a row to have a chance of it doing something (33% attack nearest, 33% do nothing, 33% act normally)...... Positive amounts are a bonus that favors the target, negatives are a penalty and favor the caster.

Pecca

I have said this on another thread with BG2 song that the description is wrong so I checked for BGEE song effects in NI and they are still same as before, which is:

Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a +2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round

The bonus favors target but is only +2. Higher levels won't matter in BGEE but are still present in the game.

On this note, if you think that the song is too weak you can use NI to edit the bonus to your liking. It is file SPCL751A.SPL

elminster

Pecca said:

I have said this on another thread with BG2 song that the description is wrong so I checked for BGEE song effects in NI and they are still same as before, which is:

Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a +2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round

The bonus favors target but is only +2. Higher levels won't matter in BGEE but are still present in the game.

On this note, if you think that the song is too weak you can use NI to edit the bonus to your liking. It is file SPCL751A.SPL

I'll be damned you are right.

szb

@TJ_Hooker
It is a penalty for the player, because they will have an easier way to resist the effect. So its a bonus from the viewpoint of the enemies, and penalty from the view of the bard. Um...yeah, glad they made the rules so simple and hard to misunderstand.

@Pecca
Thanks Pecca! I was hoping the enchanted edition would clear all these confusions and have correct descriptions, but its the same as before :-(
Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

Oxford_Guy

+4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

bbear

I agree. But confusion seems kind of overpower, right? If it works, it makes battling (especially spellcasters) much easier.

I think a better implementation is no save, but the jester effect is less op. Maybe give a luck -2 to all opponent actions in their dice rolls.

szb

Oxford_Guy said:

+4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.

dimakey

szb said:

Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

No. Bards still sux.

Oxford_Guy

szb said:

Oxford_Guy said:

+4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.

Okay, +2 isn't so bad, I still think a Skald is better

szb

Oxford_Guy said:

szb said:

Oxford_Guy said:

+4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.

Okay, +2 isn't so bad, I still think a Skald is better

Yeah, I think skald is better if you have lots of fighter types in your party, but if not, I prefer the jester.

Abel

szb said:

Oxford_Guy said:

+4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.

Well, it only lasts 1 round so you have to be almost constantly singing if you want the effect to lasts. Plus, Confusion is not that powerful. So, in my opinion the Jester is not that good either.

szb

Abel said:

szb said:

Oxford_Guy said:

+4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.

Well, it only lasts 1 round so you have to be almost constantly singing if you want the effect to lasts. Plus, Confusion is not that powerful. So, in my opinion the Jester is not that good either.

Well at low levels its not very powerfull, but I still found it usefull many times. When I run out of spells and shooting is not so effective I always turn on singing.

At higher levels the way I understand it works is that theres 3 seperate saving throws against each effect. So each round your enemies would have to save against confusion, slow, and getting uncuntious. Seems very probable that they will fail at least one of those saves.

Pecca

Jesters are not very effective, but they are fun to roleplay. I edit Garrick to be jester and then just imagine what he has to sing about to make those wild dogs confused:)

Abel

dimakey said:

szb said:

Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

No. Bards still sux.

That's what the Bard song does: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23932.
There's no luck bonus.
It can't be found in SPL so I guess it's hardcoded.

szb

Abel said:

dimakey said:

szb said:

Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

No. Bards still sux.

That's what the Bard song does: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23932.
There's no luck bonus.
It can't be found in SPL so I guess it's hardcoded.

Quote from the link:
" Here's what the default (unkitted) bard song does in BG2:ToB"
They might have or have not fixed/changed that for BG EE, so untill someone checks the current files ( I don't know how to unfortunatly) that link doesn't mean much.

Abel

@szb The updated manual agrees with this, so no, it's very unlikely it has changed.

szb

Abel said:

@szb The updated manual agrees with this, so no, it's very unlikely it has changed.

Quote from BGEE Manual Mastering Meele and Magic, page 44:

"May use Bard Song ability. While active, the Bard Song has the following
effects:
o Increase morale to 10.
o Remove Fear.
o Protection from Fear."

Quote from BGEE Manual Sword Coast Survival guide, page 56:

"Bard Song
This ability is usable by Bards; the Bard character begins playing a song that
continues until any action other than movement is selected for that Bard.
While the song is playing, the party’s morale and luck are higher."

So the 2 manuals contradict to eachother :-(

Abel

I see.
Since the second description seems to be a copy & paste I would trust the first one. I'm not going to test it because I'm quite sure there hasn't been any change but if you want to be certain you can.
Create a Bard, sing and see if any of the luck effects show up:
#133 (0x085) Spell Effect: Luck Non-Cumulative [133]
Parameter #1: Statistic Modifier
Parameter #2: Irrelevant
Description:
Applies the modifier value specified by the 'Statistic Modifier' field in the style specified by the 'Type' field to the targetted creatures luck. Luck affects the minimum damage caused by a weapon (up to the normal maximum damage of the weapon) and the attack roll modifier (up to a maximum of 20, excluding natural attack roll modifiers, e.g. high STR, invisibility etc) by 'Statistic Modifier' amount. 'Statistic Modifier' also affects the damge rolls of opponents (in feature blocks, not extension headers). The effect sets STATE_LUCK.