Nice Job, keep it up
Edwin
Member Posts: 480
I am encouraged by the pace of fixing what seems to have been more of an open beta. I now have faith that the infinity engine will approach its desired fruition.
It is my earnest desire that more and more content can be continually developed for this engine, as it still is a great transition from us old pen and paper guys. Can you imagine getting to play old modules worlds like Ravenloft or The Keep on the Boarderlands again using the infinity engine? I sure can.
If overhaul can figure out a way to efficiently monetize additional content, I am certain you will have a loyal and lucrative following.
It is my earnest desire that more and more content can be continually developed for this engine, as it still is a great transition from us old pen and paper guys. Can you imagine getting to play old modules worlds like Ravenloft or The Keep on the Boarderlands again using the infinity engine? I sure can.
If overhaul can figure out a way to efficiently monetize additional content, I am certain you will have a loyal and lucrative following.
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Comments
Don't cry! I don't think Boo could take it!
I think the ideal model would be licensing a free creation tool that would allow the fans (as well as pro developers) to drive the content creation process. The amount of quality mods and overhauls created for BG and BG2 should demonstrate how effective this model would be, especially when you think of how tediously the mod creators had to hack in their content as they didn't have any slick GUI based modding tools to work with...Imagine what could be done with power tools for the job.
I think that the mods created should go through a vetting process where the wheat is separated from the chaff much in the same way that the app store vets new apps for tablets (ie..they have to work and have a certain amount of quality to them) I imagine there would be a long line of beta testers just chomping at the bit to test these new adventures.
The thing I believe would really make a never-ending supply of new adventures is offering a percentage of sales to the modders who worked hard enough to create a quality mod. This incentive would offer real encouragement for hard work and underscore the need to create quality content...That is, if you make a great, epic adventure, better than all the rest, your fame and fortune will rise accordingly.
There's plenty worries; What is a mod exactly? What is a quality mod exactly? Who deserves money and why should they deserve money? Who would get how much? Why they would get that much? How would this percentage affect the developer/publisher earnings? How one would go about drafting a copyright agreement that included a percentage of sales and answered these questions in proper legalese?
The modding community work on existing products for the pleasure of it. If suddenly they started being rewarded in cash, quite frankly might as well close shop and call the whole thing a sham. It's the last thing I would want was for mods to suddenly drive up the price of games to make up for the loss in earnings.
Moders, are moders are moders. Some of them get to be recruited by game development companies. Most get the respect and admiration of the playerbase. That's reward enough. I have enough difficulties paying for games as it is. Will you worry for me too? I mean, as a player and customer I help drive the gaming industry. As a multiplayer I contribute to other people enjoyment of games. Am I not worthy your consideration, perhaps even more than any moder? No, I'm not. And so shouldn't be moders. Let modding remain a cultural phenomena.
As to the rather amorphous and existential-esque questions of 'what is a mod' and the minutia surrounding creation agreements, all of this can be figured out amicably and would, perforce, need to be in order for the toolset creators to extend their profit to the content creators. Ideally, a win-win, provided folks are willing to pay for good content.
I disagree with the premise that the modding community would ruined by incentive. I can think of no other historical example where rewarding someone lowered the value or quality of their work. If you can show me evidence of this I will reconsider. It is common sense to suppose that someone who does something for fun would indeed enjoy it more if their works were rewarded financially. Once again, this hinges on the notion that if you enjoy playing added content, you are willing to pay for it. I believe that this is the case with the majority of folks. If you think accepting money for working your ass off...even if you enjoy it is a sham, then I am not sure I could convince you otherwise. Just know, millions of people do it every day. As for tons of value added content driving up the cost of games...that notion is antithetical. The more quality content available the more attractive purchasing the base game that runs it all becomes.
'Modders are modders are modders' - Well. Not really...There are good modders and there are modders who have completely broken my games and cause me hours of lost time and frustration. If you think a pat on the back and a thumbs up in the forum is all you owe someone who has worked 800 hours to produce 8 hours of quality, tested and bug free game play for you to enjoy, that is your business. I don't doubt you are right that many would ask for no more than that. But... I, for one, would be willing to pay them.
If you are really willing to pay modders for their work, just donate them your money! That's been the way for as long as I remember. You don't need any kind of agreement between software houses and modders that would force everyone else (including consumers) into it.
And just don't even try convincing me or anyone that reaching a copyright agreement between modders and IP owners that involves the exchange of money is something that can be done easily and amicably. That's tall order.
I suppose one could take it as a compliment, though a complement is rarely preceded with a "why the fuck". If apropos adjectives offend you or you interpret anything beyond the most terse and abject means of communication as a shortcoming in others, I encourage you to look at that interpretation differently.
Make no mistake, I take offense at your pretentious attempt at Appeal to Authority. Just want you to know that it doesn't go unnoticed.
I do find it amazing that being able to communicate effectively is receiving ire here.
...I have, but that is sort of missing the point. The idea is encouraging more people to produce better content with some measure of quality control instead of relying on a few modders to essentially donate their valuable time and for every good mod out there there are dozens of game wreckers. If you can't pay .99 cent as in the price model of the app store for a useful program, then that says something.
...O.K. I will just present you with a fact that is not open to interpretation or persuasion. Every day, millions of times a day, amicable contracts are broached between people for the exchange of countless types of property both intellectual and otherwise.
a) It's difficult to implement and implement fairly
b) Forces the consumer in
c) All but completely removes from the gaming industry the cultural phenomena that was the modding community, turning them into a money making enterprise. Erm, your "fact" is very open to interpretation; It's a fallacy.
What does that speak of this particular type of contract? How does that make this agreement you propose more easy? How can you ascertain from that reality this type of contract is possible? You are Begging The Question. Your premise cannot in any way support the conclusion.
The complexities of copyright in the modern economy are not something to ignore. But you do a great job at making that secondary.
Your statements are so erroneous I will have to tackle them one at a time this time. We will start from the bottom and work up.
The fact that millions of amicable contracts are agreed upon every day is not a fallacy. Do you know what the word fallacy means? Do you dispute the fact that every time someone clicks 'I agree' on a piece of software they purchased they have proven you wrong? How is that a fallacy, please explain?
I've been on this industry long enough to see good intentions turn into bad habits. That you actually defend that the modding community should adhere to mercantilism is however a bad idea that can only become worse.
You don't even care to explain how exactly should these agreements be established. Let me show you three examples:
- What determines the percentage a modder makes? Based on the amount of work they did, or popularity? What if they did small work but an highly popular one? What if they did lots of work but a less popular one? What does this say of a modder incentive to produce high quality content after months of hard work?
- Who owns the copyright to a mod? Can a mod be subject to copyright? What if another modder does a similar mod? Who gets the percentage? Are you read to accept the fact you are introducing copyright into what was previously Copyleft work?
- How will the percentage of sales affect the percentage that goes to the software developer and publisher? It will reduce it. Who is going to pay for this reduction? The consumer? Or do you suggest that modders will be able to sell their own mods?
What I find really distressing however is how easy you impose an idea without taking into consideration the implications it may have on people who may be less favored than you. Essentially completely ignoring in your idea that you are driving the prices up of any game that supports mods.
You want to somehow reward modders. I support that idea without a second thought. Modders deserve being rewarded when they do a good job. Anytime. That's why I defend here and now that you, him, her, them and I should donate a little of our money to them WHEN WE CAN AND HOW MUCH WE CAN. And we should pass the word.
But what you defend is something completely different altogether. In your blindness to support modders, you actually want to end with one of the last bastions of volunteer and community work in the gaming industry and turn it into a mercantilist endeavour. Frankly I had enough of this nonsense.
Your apocalyptic projections could easily be explained by unwillingness or inability to pay for something. That charge is easily denied too, but you bought up Occam's Razor, not me.
Contracts are not the evil entities you summarily claim them to be. I, personally, entered into an intellectual copyright contract a non disclosure contract and a no competition contract in exchange for...guess what? Reward. Occam's Razor had nothing to do with it.
It is not up to me (or you) to arbitrate and outline the specific clauses of the contract. It won't be attractive or viable if it is one sided. The presumption that it would be one sided is a fallacy. It is up to modders who wish to enter into it to negotiate. There will still be plenty of modders who, for various reasons, will choose not to.
I still don't get where you presume that people are somehow gonna be forced to pay more for the game that can run all this added content we are imagining.
In regard to a monetized model obliterating " the last bastions of volunteer and community work" (snicker)... I have had my share of free haircuts throughout my life I now view paying a trades-person to trim my locks as money well spent. A free model and a monetized model (for both haircuts and DLC) has coexisted for quite some time now. I have discussed this with many of my friends and we have come to the conclusion that; while free stuff is enticing in a sort of parasitic way, the quality and ancillary benefits that come from paying for something that commands value is usually worth it and creates a mutually beneficial symbiosis.
See where I'm going?
If mods were to become a payment model DLC, we are confronted with the problem of too many variables. But i think the biggest problem would be that it creates a dangerous precedent. If one guy gets paid for his modding work, then another guy, who would previously put out great free content and be passionate about it, suddenly wouldn't want to look like he is taken advantage of, and would also want payment for his effort. And also, what about the foundation that has been laid by all the free mods made before (before BGEE existed, like TUTU, BGT, SCS) etc. I doubt any new modder would create anything starting from scratch, they would use the aforementioned things as source to improve upon. So there might be a copyright infringement issue, on top of the facts that it's just too arbitrary and hard to quantify who gets paid how much.
In conclusion, if G3/Spellhold etc reemerge and put up a big shiny Donate model after releasing some excellent content for BGEE, i'll be more than happy to contribute to their cause. This game is PRICELESS to me, as it has brought be countless hours of joy in my life and i'm sure many others share my sentiments.
P.S. Edwin, if you say you're a Starcraft fan, did you,by any chance, get to practice your pompous, pretentious and self-indulgent manner of speech on TeamLiquid? Because they welcome this type of rubbish with open arms over there.
Maybe it's just me but when I think an 'enhanced' game I think something like, for example, Megaman Powered Up that went above and beyond a remake of the first megaman game with more than just some new froof a romhacker could even dream of doing.
This game? Not quite as Powered Up, or dare I say it, enhanced. So, why should I throw money at it when I can wait for a Tutu modder to make Neera and the Black Pits backwardsly for me? It's within the realm of modding, so why not?
The same reason you might pay for a movie ticket rather than sneaking in through the back door.
That and the added bonus of being able to look yourself in the mirror and truthfully say, "I am not a selfish, parasitic douchebag. I meaningfully support the products from which I get enjoyment ."
I envision a system where there would be enough incentive to create not just tweaks, extra items and a few npc's or side-quests, but instead a plethora of complete epic campaigns the likes of which I have only seen approached in as few as 2 mods (Classic Adventures and Epic Endeavors) and Classic Adventures remains awesome but unfinished.
Yes the donate button is great, and I have used it for the aforementioned complete overhaul mods because they reflected an enormous amount of work. I truly believe that real substantial, epic content above and beyond tweaks is something that IMO would require more incentive and better creation tools to become a reality. (I still love you Near Infinity)
I would, however, LOVE to see a free edition of a toolset for BG (Infinity Engine).
An entire mod database accessible through the launcher where others may upload and update their creations for others to see, download and vote on, in a user-friendly manner.
Some of the mod installations supersede other mods, some have redundant content, some have conflicts with other mods and a person who doesn't have a PHD in Infinity Engine could easily wreck his or her game. Often, the game breaker wouldn't show itself until a casual player had days of time invested in the campaign.
Some measure of quality control and uniformity is definitely a step in the right direction.