Also, @ZanathKariashi, I heard there is a new +2 scimitar in EE, though I've yet to find it. Any idea where it might be? If it's before, say, chapter 4, I still may want to edit my proficiencies to start with scimitar, then go short sword.
Thanks, SS
Rashaad's Talon (scimitar+2) is in the 2nd cloakwood area (chapter 4)
Take my advice: start with scimitars 2. Play a human. Dual-class at level 2 to fighter. Choose two weapon style 2 and longbow 2. Steal Drizzt's scimitars. Get to level 3 fighter and choose the 3r level in two weapon style. You have now an extremely efficient fighter.
Don't want to spoil it for you, but the swashbuckler was just made to be dual-classed to fighter.
Huh. I was going to disagree with swashbucklers being designed to dual to fighter, but disregarding their thief abilities and going for an immediate dual into Fighter actually sounds quite nice. Extra AC and THAC0, early-game thief abilities, negligible long-term downside. I like it.
It's worth noting for the OP's sake that this wouldn't suffice as the party's main thief later in the game, at least not without a steady supply of master thievery potions. I would also personally find it quite boring to play.
Swashbucklers get as many points as a normal thief. According to the text anyway. They lose backstab in return for their stuff.
I would suggest dual wielding and throwing at least one point in Katanas to wield the sword that lets you memorize more spells in your offhand. Really just need to throw one dot in for basic proficiency since it's not great for even hitting with at a certain point. But the extra magic really makes up for it. Meanwhile there are a TON of great longswords throughout the entire series for your main hand.
A plain thief is better for a mage dual for the sequel. X4 backstab is worth a lot more then the pitiful amount of hit/damage/ac 10 levels of swashy would give, especially since it sounds like you're wanting single weapon style. That doubles the crit chance for attacks, making for some ridiculous backstabs...also...PMSO would allow for effortless 120+ damage backstabs the moment you could cast the spell (and benefits from single weapon style for higher crit chance for even more ridiculous damage), and with easy access to rings of air control you wouldn't even need hide/MS at all to do it.
The main weakness of a single weapon swashy is that you will NEVER have more then a single attack (and thus being able to backstab is FAR superior), except under haste for a total of 2. If you wielded one of the speed weapons (Scimitar and Short-sword only), you can at least get 4 under improved haste. Though the Firetooth (Dagger) in BG2 is a one stop shop for a dualed thief mage. It is both melee and ranged, hits like a bastard sword, can be backstabbed with, has 2 base attacks, deals a little fire damage, is +3. The only downside is that it only becomes available about 1/2 way or so through the sequel..it's otherwise an awesome weapon (though the Crimson dart is a nice hold over till you get it...3 attacks per round, +3, can be acquired immediately, just keep a decent melee weapon for backstabbing).
A swashbuckler is superior to a fighter, though it doesn't seem that way at first, but at the end, you end up dealing about 5 more damage per hit over the best a fighter could, and even against a dualed to a fighter would still out damage by 3. That's taking into account the fact that a fighter can potentially get 1 more attack under ideal circumstances, the actual damage difference is about 27 overall in the pure swashbuckler's favor. Also, once you get UAI, you'd have almost double the AC a low dualed swash fighter or fighter could attain.
Really the only benefit of a fighter over a swash buckler is a little more hp and a lot of wasted extra thac0 at a much greater cost. In short..no..swashbucklers are not made to be dualed into fighter, they're actually superior in almost every way just as they are, and are one of the handful of classes that can legitimately be single classed the whole game without wasting anything.
I agree with you, that the swashbuckler's +hit and +dmg bonuses add up and end better than a fighter's per-hit, but... a) swashbuckler will have 2-3 attacks per round when dual-wielding. max. fighter can do 4-5. thag's more overall damage. plus the fighter's THAC0 is better thru most of the game. Swashbucklers only catch up at very high levels. b) still no comparison to damage that a high level Kensai can pull off.
of course, warriors have more HP and can wear better armor right away and thieves make up for it with thieving skills (traps!) and UAI. but still, it's quite unfair to say that one of the classes is better. they are both viable and fun.
Another option would be to go with a Longsword and single weapon proficiency for the extra AC and improved critical hit chance. That would be a total of -5 AC for a level 10 Swashbuckler compared to other Thief kits.
I've been wondering about doing this and am pleased to see someone suggest it. I plan to dual my swashbuckler to mage near the start of BG2 and am looking to the swashbuckler levels for opening locks and detecting traps and illusions, and a few extra weapon proficiencies--not as a primary damage source. Also playing a swashbuckler will allow me to dual Imoen to mage at level 2 which will leave me with lots of choices when it comes to other companions.
Also, I find the mechanics of switching between dual wielding and a bow really awkward so using only one weapon is very attractive. Anyone else have thoughts on the trade-offs involved in a single-weapon style swashbuckler?
I'd say that dual wielding is one of the major draws of the Swashbuckler. If you're going with single-weapon style anyway, why stick with the swashie? Make him a normal thief if you want more skill points, or an assassin to take full advantage of single-weapon style for epic backstabs. And in the choice between swashie and F/T multi, if you're going single-weapon then F/T seems much, much better in my book.
Alright, so here's a not-completely-canon take on swashbuckler. I am aware of 2nd edition rules now, though I was not entirely aware of item breakdown in BG2. Here's the build:
Elves are flavorful swashbucklers, they enjoy being skillful and sneaky, and also enjoy the art of swordplay. In addition, they are pretty mean with their racial abilities (elves have always been the broken choice in 2nd edition). I went for Str 18, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11 as my starting stats.
Elves get a bonus not just with longswords, but with bows. I realize you only get 2 proficiencies at level 1, but having a ranged weapon in BG1 often ends an encounter before it begins. After gnashing my teeth, I opted for longsword+ and shortbow+ so that I could cover all my bases and get my full racial bonus to both weapons. Also, with 19 Dex, I really wanted to cash in on the ranged THAC0!
I liked the kit swashbuckler since I got to use the thief EXP table and avoid the multiclass woes of fighter/thief, even though they make great backstabbers. Also? With the bonuses-by-level swashbucklers get I figured I could eventually accrue more AC and similar toe-to-toe damage to a fighter/thief, not to mention I would get more thief skillpoints. I capped out lockpicking first thing, followed by detect traps. My later points I spread a bit between stealth and Pickpocket. I decided at the last minute I wanted to get Pickpocket through the roof and that's the next skill I'll be maxxing out come BG2. After that I'll probably do Detect Illusions and Set Traps before I go back to stealth skills again.
As mentioned, using a bow is awkward when using a pair of weapons, so my next proficiency was One Weapon Style. Everyone is harping on the damage you can deal later, but no one is talking about your survivability/tanking ability. You *can* use other NPCs for this purpose, but if you want to move into melee at all then you have to consider your squishy thief HP and lack of a helmet (until you get Use Any Item). In BG:EE I found the extra crit chance to be a lot of fun, especially after I found the other stat tomes (Str 19), more magic items and got my second pip into longswords. I ended the game doing 17-24 damage at 7 THAC0 unbuffed, I believe.
Knowing what I know now, I may train scimitars in BG2:EE when it arrives, and slowly work my way up the dual-wielding style until it all comes to fruition about the time I get UAI. I like having the option to bolster crits and AC though, and could keep on with the bow if I deem it the right choice.
Anyway, this might not be the most planned-out over-the-top build for BG2, but it sure has been a blast in BG:EE and I believe I can correct any errors with time and levels in BG2, if they even qualify as errors. For BG:EE, it worked for me and was fun to play.
Another option would be to go with a Longsword and single weapon proficiency for the extra AC and improved critical hit chance. That would be a total of -5 AC for a level 10 Swashbuckler compared to other Thief kits.
I've been wondering about doing this and am pleased to see someone suggest it. I plan to dual my swashbuckler to mage near the start of BG2 and am looking to the swashbuckler levels for opening locks and detecting traps and illusions, and a few extra weapon proficiencies--not as a primary damage source. Also playing a swashbuckler will allow me to dual Imoen to mage at level 2 which will leave me with lots of choices when it comes to other companions.
Also, I find the mechanics of switching between dual wielding and a bow really awkward so using only one weapon is very attractive. Anyone else have thoughts on the trade-offs involved in a single-weapon style swashbuckler?
I'd say that dual wielding is one of the major draws of the Swashbuckler. If you're going with single-weapon style anyway, why stick with the swashie? Make him a normal thief if you want more skill points, or an assassin to take full advantage of single-weapon style for epic backstabs. And in the choice between swashie and F/T multi, if you're going single-weapon then F/T seems much, much better in my book.
Alright, so here's a not-completely-canon take on swashbuckler. I am aware of 2nd edition rules now, though I was not entirely aware of item breakdown in BG2. Here's the build:
Elves are flavorful swashbucklers, they enjoy being skillful and sneaky, and also enjoy the art of swordplay. In addition, they are pretty mean with their racial abilities (elves have always been the broken choice in 2nd edition). I went for Str 18, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11 as my starting stats.
Elves get a bonus not just with longswords, but with bows
In BG elves get the +1 THAC0 bonus with *all* swords, including scimitars, katanas, two-handed swords, short swords etc., not just long swords
In PnP D&D it should only be in long *and* short swords (and bows)
Just thought i would post this as i had no idea it would happen, if your playing a swashy/cleric duel-class in BG2 when you get slayer form you loose your ability to set traps along with your divine abilities. Defs a bug, hopefully fixed in BG2:EE.
BG elves get a THAC0 bonus with all swords? Well that's dumb, in the over-powered sense. Very well, I guess I won't lose anything if I slowly convert to scimitars in BG2. Ridiculous.
Few things about swashy that i had forgotten until finally making it most of the way through BG2.
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization give: 1/2 an attack per round +1 Thaco and +2 damage. By em selves this doesn't give much but the second pip in a weapon (unique to the swashy out of all thieves) gives half an attack per round also, meaning that you can get a full extra attack per round with your main hand weapon over any other thief. 2main, 1offhand and improved haste will give you 6 attacks/round.
Montolio's Cloak gives 1ac, 1saves and +2thaco for your offhand, with 3 pips in duel wield and this cloak and you will have no off-hand penalty.
Kill the shadow dragon and make yourself some black dragon scale armor asap.
BG elves get a THAC0 bonus with all swords? Well that's dumb, in the over-powered sense. Very well, I guess I won't lose anything if I slowly convert to scimitars in BG2. Ridiculous.
Well, even without the possibility of three slots in dual-wielding, they can still put two into any thief weapon, as well as two in any weapon style. Not to mention the bonuses to THAC0 and damage, and AC (which is nice for mage dual classes) that come with the class. Personally, I think that is the best part of the class, not to mention retaining full thieving skill. Dual-weapon fighting isn't the only advantage to the class. Also, at least with BG1, the Swashbuckler won't be able to have two slots in a weapon and three slots in dual-weapon fighting.
Aesthetically, I've always seen the Swashbuckler as a single-weapon fighter with the AC (parry) bonus. He needs a free hand to swing off of chandaliers after all.
Comments
It's worth noting for the OP's sake that this wouldn't suffice as the party's main thief later in the game, at least not without a steady supply of master thievery potions. I would also personally find it quite boring to play.
I would suggest dual wielding and throwing at least one point in Katanas to wield the sword that lets you memorize more spells in your offhand. Really just need to throw one dot in for basic proficiency since it's not great for even hitting with at a certain point. But the extra magic really makes up for it. Meanwhile there are a TON of great longswords throughout the entire series for your main hand.
The main weakness of a single weapon swashy is that you will NEVER have more then a single attack (and thus being able to backstab is FAR superior), except under haste for a total of 2. If you wielded one of the speed weapons (Scimitar and Short-sword only), you can at least get 4 under improved haste. Though the Firetooth (Dagger) in BG2 is a one stop shop for a dualed thief mage. It is both melee and ranged, hits like a bastard sword, can be backstabbed with, has 2 base attacks, deals a little fire damage, is +3. The only downside is that it only becomes available about 1/2 way or so through the sequel..it's otherwise an awesome weapon (though the Crimson dart is a nice hold over till you get it...3 attacks per round, +3, can be acquired immediately, just keep a decent melee weapon for backstabbing).
A swashbuckler is superior to a fighter, though it doesn't seem that way at first, but at the end, you end up dealing about 5 more damage per hit over the best a fighter could, and even against a dualed to a fighter would still out damage by 3. That's taking into account the fact that a fighter can potentially get 1 more attack under ideal circumstances, the actual damage difference is about 27 overall in the pure swashbuckler's favor. Also, once you get UAI, you'd have almost double the AC a low dualed swash fighter or fighter could attain.
Really the only benefit of a fighter over a swash buckler is a little more hp and a lot of wasted extra thac0 at a much greater cost. In short..no..swashbucklers are not made to be dualed into fighter, they're actually superior in almost every way just as they are, and are one of the handful of classes that can legitimately be single classed the whole game without wasting anything.
a) swashbuckler will have 2-3 attacks per round when dual-wielding. max. fighter can do 4-5. thag's more overall damage. plus the fighter's THAC0 is better thru most of the game. Swashbucklers only catch up at very high levels.
b) still no comparison to damage that a high level Kensai can pull off.
of course, warriors have more HP and can wear better armor right away and thieves make up for it with thieving skills (traps!) and UAI. but still, it's quite unfair to say that one of the classes is better. they are both viable and fun.
Elves are flavorful swashbucklers, they enjoy being skillful and sneaky, and also enjoy the art of swordplay. In addition, they are pretty mean with their racial abilities (elves have always been the broken choice in 2nd edition). I went for Str 18, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 11 as my starting stats.
Elves get a bonus not just with longswords, but with bows. I realize you only get 2 proficiencies at level 1, but having a ranged weapon in BG1 often ends an encounter before it begins. After gnashing my teeth, I opted for longsword+ and shortbow+ so that I could cover all my bases and get my full racial bonus to both weapons. Also, with 19 Dex, I really wanted to cash in on the ranged THAC0!
I liked the kit swashbuckler since I got to use the thief EXP table and avoid the multiclass woes of fighter/thief, even though they make great backstabbers. Also? With the bonuses-by-level swashbucklers get I figured I could eventually accrue more AC and similar toe-to-toe damage to a fighter/thief, not to mention I would get more thief skillpoints. I capped out lockpicking first thing, followed by detect traps. My later points I spread a bit between stealth and Pickpocket. I decided at the last minute I wanted to get Pickpocket through the roof and that's the next skill I'll be maxxing out come BG2. After that I'll probably do Detect Illusions and Set Traps before I go back to stealth skills again.
As mentioned, using a bow is awkward when using a pair of weapons, so my next proficiency was One Weapon Style. Everyone is harping on the damage you can deal later, but no one is talking about your survivability/tanking ability. You *can* use other NPCs for this purpose, but if you want to move into melee at all then you have to consider your squishy thief HP and lack of a helmet (until you get Use Any Item). In BG:EE I found the extra crit chance to be a lot of fun, especially after I found the other stat tomes (Str 19), more magic items and got my second pip into longswords. I ended the game doing 17-24 damage at 7 THAC0 unbuffed, I believe.
Knowing what I know now, I may train scimitars in BG2:EE when it arrives, and slowly work my way up the dual-wielding style until it all comes to fruition about the time I get UAI. I like having the option to bolster crits and AC though, and could keep on with the bow if I deem it the right choice.
Anyway, this might not be the most planned-out over-the-top build for BG2, but it sure has been a blast in BG:EE and I believe I can correct any errors with time and levels in BG2, if they even qualify as errors. For BG:EE, it worked for me and was fun to play.
In PnP D&D it should only be in long *and* short swords (and bows)
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization give: 1/2 an attack per round +1 Thaco and +2 damage.
By em selves this doesn't give much but the second pip in a weapon (unique to the swashy out of all thieves) gives half an attack per round also, meaning that you can get a full extra attack per round with your main hand weapon over any other thief.
2main, 1offhand and improved haste will give you 6 attacks/round.
Montolio's Cloak gives 1ac, 1saves and +2thaco for your offhand, with 3 pips in duel wield and this cloak and you will have no off-hand penalty.
Kill the shadow dragon and make yourself some black dragon scale armor asap.
Aesthetically, I've always seen the Swashbuckler as a single-weapon fighter with the AC (parry) bonus. He needs a free hand to swing off of chandaliers after all.