Party building for beginners
sandmanCCL
Member Posts: 1,389
1) Ask yourself, "Do I have the 4 core roles fulfilled?"
The 4 fantasy archetypes are pretty common knowledge: "Tank," "Rogue," "Disabler," "Buffer." Tank is your guy designed to focus aggression on himself because he's got the armor and HP pool to handle it. Rogue is your dude for dealing with non-combat necessities, such at disarming traps or opening locked boxes. A disabler is what I categorize as someone who controls the tide of the battlefield through AOE means, and is typically personified in D&D as a mage. The thing they add other classes cannot really do is Area damage and ways to hinder the success of the opponent (debuffs, crowd control, etc.). A buffer is someone who does what they can to enhance the combat prowess of your own party and is typically defined in AD&D as a divine spellcaster (so druid or cleric.) In between battles, they can restore your party to full fighting strength through heal spells, or they can summon meatshields through summoning spells, or they have ways to make your guys better.
If you don't have all 4 covered, you can still make it work. It's harder to make a bad party than a good party. Just keep that in mind.
Both arcane and divine spellcasters overlap a little in the buffer/debuffer roles. Clerics get command as a level 1 spell, for example, while mages can use Haste.
It's worth noting there's an NPC who is good for every role. Need a powerful mage? There's Edwin for that. Want a powerful mage who is also super durable? Dual-class Imoen. Need a meatshield? There's KhalidAjantisYeslickKagainandabout15otherguys for that. Don't stress too much about making sure you pick your guy around the NPCs you want to use, because overlapping roles are totally fine. That's why there are 6 slots and not just 4. Which brings me to my next point:
2) What do I want as my "swing" slots?
You get up to 6 people in the BG games. I realize we gamers aren't noted for our math skills but that means you have 2 open slots to do whatever you want with. Hybrid characters who can satisfy multiple roles in a pinch work well as your swing people, or maybe you want to bring more divine/arcane casters so you can split them up into more specialized roles per character. For example, in BG2, I had both Aerie and Imoen. Aerie as a cleric/mage, I decided to make my buffing specialist. Both her divine and arcane slots were filled to the brim with hastes, stone skins, strength, and any other spell I could think of to protect my guys. Imoen took over the debuffing/nuke role and typically ran with lots of spell-stripping abilities (Breach, Ray of Reversal, etc.) and also had my big damage spells like Dragon's Breath and Chain Lightning.
Any dedicated ranged hero is also a good swing slot unit. Someone who specializes in bows can be terminally lethal but tend to not make the best tanks due to the inability to equip shields and bows at the same time, and they also probably won't be a wizard because those guys are better off just shooting spells rather than arrows. It's a role you don't need, but really stands out. (Luckily, one of if not the best NPC archer, Coran, also satisfies your need for a rogue. You find situations like this all the time.)
Bards are also about the ultimate swing class, although both bards in BG1 are kind of bad. They can back up your mage, buff your party, attack from range, and potentially off-tank given the right buffs and equipment.
Another swing class archetype is what I call the bruiser. The bruiser is a hit-and-run style physical combatant who can't take a hit but can dish out serious punishment. The backstabbing assassin or a dual-wielding blade are examples of this. I'd go as far as to say Shar-Teel dual-classed into a fighter/thief personifies what I consider a bruiser: crappy HP due to low constitution, mediocre armor class due to being limited to leathers, but boy does she pack a punch.
3) Why are Xzar and Jaheira killing each other?
Some NPCs really don't like each other. Xzar and Montaron, being part of the Zhentarim, are sworn enemies of the Harpers. Khalid and Jaheira are both Harpers. Once they realize it, they'll come to blows.
From @tobajas:
Full list of NPC's in BG fighting each other
Eldoth <-> Shar-Teel
Jaheira + Khalid <-> Montaron + Xzar
(If Jaheira and Montaron is alone in the group there is no fight but Khalid - Montaron/Xzar or Jaheira - Xzar can start a fight)
Quayle <-> Tiax
Kagain <-> Yeslick
Dynaheir <-> Edwin
The odds of any fighting starting is around 33% everytime a dialogue starts between them.
www.sorcerers.net has the best info on what the % is and so on there are even a few hidden dialogues that will start aggression between other NPC's that have pretty much 0% chance of starting
Viconia - Kivan is one of the 0% group which I myself have never seen fight after hours and hours with them in the party but as noted on the site it is possible just really really rare these other fights are more common.
4) Who or what is better between X and Y?
Who cares? It's a single player RPG. You don't win an award for DPS. No one is going to pat you on the back for leading the raid in damage. I understand people's desire to run with "the best," but I encourage you to change that thinking into:
"How can I get the most out of my characters?"
There's a lot of fun to be had in pushing the boundaries in what you can do with otherwise sub-par characters and half the challenge in any D&D game is out-thinking what's going on rather than pushing your way through it by having superior stats or weaponry.
EVERYTHING IS VIABLE! Go and figure out how to make it work. Welcome to D&D!
So don't ask us "Should I use this guy over this guy?" to the forums. Own your party! Tell us how you utilized a party of 6 thieves to beat the game. Give us your legendary tale of how you forced Edwin to work alongside Ajantis to overcome hordes of Ankheg. People here are just going to give you their opinion of what is most fun to play with. It's a single player RPG, not some MMO. There is no reward for following some optimal path. In today's day and age of forums looking for someone else to tell you the "best" way to play, games like Baldur's Gate lose a little bit of their luster. Just go and play and have fun!
5) No, but really, who should I use?
If you really can't make up your mind, I wrote this NPC guide a number of years ago and updated it a few months back in anticipation for this game. A lot of my own personal biases come through (GARRICK YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHI), but I tried my best to give fair and accurate information on each NPC and how to best utilize them. EDIT NOTE: Updated with new NPC info, and thanks to @PeteAtoms for noticing a glaring error I put in there.
But I will not tell you how to build your party beyond the advice I gave here because I believe it's best to just run with the guys you like the most. So na-na, na-na boo-boo.
The 4 fantasy archetypes are pretty common knowledge: "Tank," "Rogue," "Disabler," "Buffer." Tank is your guy designed to focus aggression on himself because he's got the armor and HP pool to handle it. Rogue is your dude for dealing with non-combat necessities, such at disarming traps or opening locked boxes. A disabler is what I categorize as someone who controls the tide of the battlefield through AOE means, and is typically personified in D&D as a mage. The thing they add other classes cannot really do is Area damage and ways to hinder the success of the opponent (debuffs, crowd control, etc.). A buffer is someone who does what they can to enhance the combat prowess of your own party and is typically defined in AD&D as a divine spellcaster (so druid or cleric.) In between battles, they can restore your party to full fighting strength through heal spells, or they can summon meatshields through summoning spells, or they have ways to make your guys better.
If you don't have all 4 covered, you can still make it work. It's harder to make a bad party than a good party. Just keep that in mind.
Both arcane and divine spellcasters overlap a little in the buffer/debuffer roles. Clerics get command as a level 1 spell, for example, while mages can use Haste.
It's worth noting there's an NPC who is good for every role. Need a powerful mage? There's Edwin for that. Want a powerful mage who is also super durable? Dual-class Imoen. Need a meatshield? There's KhalidAjantisYeslickKagainandabout15otherguys for that. Don't stress too much about making sure you pick your guy around the NPCs you want to use, because overlapping roles are totally fine. That's why there are 6 slots and not just 4. Which brings me to my next point:
2) What do I want as my "swing" slots?
You get up to 6 people in the BG games. I realize we gamers aren't noted for our math skills but that means you have 2 open slots to do whatever you want with. Hybrid characters who can satisfy multiple roles in a pinch work well as your swing people, or maybe you want to bring more divine/arcane casters so you can split them up into more specialized roles per character. For example, in BG2, I had both Aerie and Imoen. Aerie as a cleric/mage, I decided to make my buffing specialist. Both her divine and arcane slots were filled to the brim with hastes, stone skins, strength, and any other spell I could think of to protect my guys. Imoen took over the debuffing/nuke role and typically ran with lots of spell-stripping abilities (Breach, Ray of Reversal, etc.) and also had my big damage spells like Dragon's Breath and Chain Lightning.
Any dedicated ranged hero is also a good swing slot unit. Someone who specializes in bows can be terminally lethal but tend to not make the best tanks due to the inability to equip shields and bows at the same time, and they also probably won't be a wizard because those guys are better off just shooting spells rather than arrows. It's a role you don't need, but really stands out. (Luckily, one of if not the best NPC archer, Coran, also satisfies your need for a rogue. You find situations like this all the time.)
Bards are also about the ultimate swing class, although both bards in BG1 are kind of bad. They can back up your mage, buff your party, attack from range, and potentially off-tank given the right buffs and equipment.
Another swing class archetype is what I call the bruiser. The bruiser is a hit-and-run style physical combatant who can't take a hit but can dish out serious punishment. The backstabbing assassin or a dual-wielding blade are examples of this. I'd go as far as to say Shar-Teel dual-classed into a fighter/thief personifies what I consider a bruiser: crappy HP due to low constitution, mediocre armor class due to being limited to leathers, but boy does she pack a punch.
3) Why are Xzar and Jaheira killing each other?
Some NPCs really don't like each other. Xzar and Montaron, being part of the Zhentarim, are sworn enemies of the Harpers. Khalid and Jaheira are both Harpers. Once they realize it, they'll come to blows.
From @tobajas:
Full list of NPC's in BG fighting each other
Eldoth <-> Shar-Teel
Jaheira + Khalid <-> Montaron + Xzar
(If Jaheira and Montaron is alone in the group there is no fight but Khalid - Montaron/Xzar or Jaheira - Xzar can start a fight)
Quayle <-> Tiax
Kagain <-> Yeslick
Dynaheir <-> Edwin
The odds of any fighting starting is around 33% everytime a dialogue starts between them.
www.sorcerers.net has the best info on what the % is and so on there are even a few hidden dialogues that will start aggression between other NPC's that have pretty much 0% chance of starting
Viconia - Kivan is one of the 0% group which I myself have never seen fight after hours and hours with them in the party but as noted on the site it is possible just really really rare these other fights are more common.
4) Who or what is better between X and Y?
Who cares? It's a single player RPG. You don't win an award for DPS. No one is going to pat you on the back for leading the raid in damage. I understand people's desire to run with "the best," but I encourage you to change that thinking into:
"How can I get the most out of my characters?"
There's a lot of fun to be had in pushing the boundaries in what you can do with otherwise sub-par characters and half the challenge in any D&D game is out-thinking what's going on rather than pushing your way through it by having superior stats or weaponry.
EVERYTHING IS VIABLE! Go and figure out how to make it work. Welcome to D&D!
So don't ask us "Should I use this guy over this guy?" to the forums. Own your party! Tell us how you utilized a party of 6 thieves to beat the game. Give us your legendary tale of how you forced Edwin to work alongside Ajantis to overcome hordes of Ankheg. People here are just going to give you their opinion of what is most fun to play with. It's a single player RPG, not some MMO. There is no reward for following some optimal path. In today's day and age of forums looking for someone else to tell you the "best" way to play, games like Baldur's Gate lose a little bit of their luster. Just go and play and have fun!
5) No, but really, who should I use?
If you really can't make up your mind, I wrote this NPC guide a number of years ago and updated it a few months back in anticipation for this game. A lot of my own personal biases come through (GARRICK YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHI), but I tried my best to give fair and accurate information on each NPC and how to best utilize them. EDIT NOTE: Updated with new NPC info, and thanks to @PeteAtoms for noticing a glaring error I put in there.
But I will not tell you how to build your party beyond the advice I gave here because I believe it's best to just run with the guys you like the most. So na-na, na-na boo-boo.
Post edited by sandmanCCL on
10
Comments
So my setup Wild mage + Black guard front row Cleric + Monk middle and Thief + Wild mage back row.
Some might say it's a bit risky with my PC upfront but hey he's the leader and I just love the wild surge had some fun moments with it
(disclaimer: characters and/or miniature giant space hamsters may or may not be as epic as advertised)
The only thing I spotted was there seems to be a typo in Dorn's entry. His stats say his Dex is 16, but in the description you say "and he's also got good dexterity at 19."
As an aside, I don't remember the "tank" "buffer" "DPS" etc. archetypes coming into the gamer lexicon until games like WoW came on the scene. Based on my experiences in other internet forums I'd say a lot of self-proclaimed "purists" hate when those terms are used because it suggests DnD is all about exploitation of game mechanics rather than a game of shared imagination ("Dude, you wanna play a bard? They're so weak..."). With that said, I love what you wrote in number 3.
Me - Ranger
Adjuntis
Branwen
Imoen
Kiven
Neera
this is working well for me
Eldoth - Shar-Teel
Jaheira + Khalid - Montaron + Xzar
(If Jaheira and Montaron is alone in the group there is no fight but Khalid - Montaron/Xzar or Jaheira - Xzar can start a fight)
Quayle - Tiax
Kagain - Yeslick
Dynaheir - Edwin
The odds of any fighting starting is around 33% everytime a dialogue starts between them.
www.sorcerers.net has the best info on what the % is and so on there are even a few hidden dialogues that will start aggression between other NPC's that have pretty much 0% chance of starting
Viconia - Kivan is one of the 0% group which I myself have never seen fight after hours and hours with them in the party but as noted on the site it is possible just really really rare these other fights are more common.