How does Thief/Mage Work?

Suii

I have done so much reading but help me understand this basic idea.

If you go Thief and then dual class to Mage, say level 5 thief level 6 mage, at that point you have unlocked all the abilities for both. How does spell casting work. If you are wearing regular thief for example shadow armor, are you not able to cast mage spells? I am trying to understand how this class is so powerful because if I understand it correctly they made it so you can't pause the game and remove armor to cast spells and put it back on?

Please explain how Thief/Mage is a good combo in a regular playstyle environment.

Nazad

Mage spells can't be cast in any armor. You will want to wear robes of the archmagi. Spells that improve your defenses to help your AC would be shield (level 1), blur and mirror image (level 2) and spirit armor (level 4), though if you play a gnome thief/illusionist you can't cast spirit armor because it's necromancy. I assume you want to backstab. Quarterstaves are best for a mage/thief because metal armors grant a higher armor class versus slashing or piercing, but not bludgeoning weapons. Your invisibility spells can replace hide and move silently and nondetection will make you immune to spells such as detect invisibility. You will of course also want a shortbow.

Suii

Yes, my goal here is to be a backstabbing monster. I want to go Assassin to Mage, but I just didnt understand the playstyle. So basically you are forced to wear robes from that point on and to offset that you are buffing yourself with mage spells to be more survivable?

You can use a quarterstaff with backstabbing, thats interesting, so it sounds like you are kitting yourself out in a lot of mage gear after the swap and then backstabbing with mage gear on?

Nazad

Suii said:

Yes, my goal here is to be a backstabbing monster. I want to go Assassin to Mage, but I just didnt understand the playstyle. So basically you are forced to wear robes from that point on and to offset that you are buffing yourself with mage spells to be more survivable?

You can use a quarterstaff with backstabbing, thats interesting, so it sounds like you are kitting yourself out in a lot of mage gear after the swap and then backstabbing with mage gear on?

Yes, assassin to mage would work well as a dual class. You will be able to use all thief items except armor and cast spells freely. You will end up with a better armor class through mage equipment and spells than you would with a thief or assassin. One thing to keep in mind is that you'll want a high Strength for backstabbing, which normally wouldn't matter for a mage. Another thing to keep in mind is exactly when to dual class to mage. You will lose all assassin abilities until your mage level is one higher than your assassin level. So, you could dual as late as level 7 assassin (40,000 xp) and you'd regain your assassin abilities when you became a level 8 mage (90,000 xp). So, your assassin abilities wouldn't come back until late in the game.

While I think quarterstaff is an optimal backstab weapon, the dagger of venom is also excellent. Note that at level 1 mage and level 6 mage, you gain mage weapon proficiences. As quarterstaff and dagger are both mage weapon choices, you could choose a different set of thief weapons (shortbow, short sword, etc) that would 'go to sleep' when you dual to mage. When your thief skills return, so will those weapon proficiencies, but you won't be able to select any thief weapon proficiencies after you become a mage. I mention this so that you can get access to a larger number of weapons and be good with them.

One last thing: if you like backstabbing with a quarterstaff, taking one point in two-weapon style is worth it because it improves your critical chance from 5% to 10%.

ZanathKariashi

I'd like to chime in that an assassin is a waste if you dual early. They take a massive skill penalty, and while they do get a +1 hit/damage and poison weapon, it's not really useful. A multi-thief mages would be MUCH stronger in the long run, especially a gnome one (extra spell per day per spell level and a good spread of racial thief skills). And without the skill penalty at all. While it is true that the assassin would deal 3 more damage at lvl 7, your over all thief experience would be significantly better. Especially once you got 4 and 5x BS. And you wouldn't have to deal with downtime at all.

Even a plain thief dual would end up better since you'd have more points to play around with. Poison weapon would only have 2 uses, and while the assassin would deal 3 more damage with it's backstabs, when you're dealing with a 90+ damage BS, 3 damage doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. The hit is kinda of nice, but more often then not, not really needed, attacking from stealth grants a +4 to hit, and PMSO gives +3 hit, +6 damage.

The dagger of venom is pretty nice, and actually replaces the assassin's poison weapon entirely if dual before 10. It's also very nice for the early game when you don't have boots of speed, since it can allow hit and fade because the enemies will be stuck in hit reactions from the poison and you can rehide more easily..

But on that note...the reason the assassin sucks is because you'll pretty much HAVE to trade out the boots of stealth once you get a pair of boots of speed (and you can't wear the shadow armor without blocking spell casting). And due to their much less point totals, you'll likely be hurting for points to spare, unless you've ignored all other thief skills. While mages do have invisibility spells, it's better to save them for times when hit and fade won't work well (can't get out of LoS), and use the BoS to get enough distance to hide when room allows.

As for potions, and rings of invisibility and the like..those should be saved for when you use PMSO...the dex penalty greatly hinders your ability to stealth naturally (till the sequel anyway, if you're a multi).

The assassin is one of those kits you really need to just go single class to get the most out of. If you could dual into a kit, starting as a plain fighter and then going assassin would actually be a useful dual for them...but that doesn't work....

And they really don't make very good mage duals because they're almost as high-end loaded as a caster is.

My usual T/M set up, dual or multi, is SS, dagger or Longsword * (You can pickpocket a +1 dagger in candlekeep (or simply get it with 18 charisma), and there are very easily acquired +2 SS and longswords you could use as well (usually go for the Longsword)...the dagger of venom, while nice is VERY pricy), single weapon style * (double crit, +1 ac, also applies to PMSO...which is just nasty 135+ on a crit is pretty common). Then Quarterstaff *, and finally two-handed style * (double crit, -2 weapon speed).

Suii

So that's a lot of great info thanks to both of you guys. I'm looking to play this toon into bg2 as either fighter/thief Kensai/thief or thief/mage. My goal is to wreck things backstabbing and be able to lock pick and disarm traps all on the charname toon.

If I go Kensai/thief can I wear armor and still get all the Kensai bonuses later after thief level is 1 higher? If you go Kensai/thief do you end up a basic thief or can you be specialized I'm guessing its basic only there

If I go fighter you get more hp and pts to dump into weaps and fighting styles I'm guessing that's the main benefit there

Or maybe even f/m/t as crazy as that sounds and run with no party

I understand thief/Mage a lot better now so which thief is best if I'm playing into bg2 before swapping to a Mage in that situation?

Thanks

ZanathKariashi

A the fighter half ultimately just makes you better for things you can't backstab, since you get some extra attacks and can dual-wield without penalty which allows for you to just bludgeon said enemies to death in melee. And a little extra thac0. HP is nice..but a Backstabber is almost never going to be hit, so it tends to end up wasted for often then not.

And Detect illusions is ridiculously OP. It makes several fights with invisibility or illusion spammers a joke, and allows you to save spell slots and dispels for better things.

F/M/T is ok, and solo is actually the recommended way to go for both triple classes. You're already equivilent to 3 people, so bringing a triple class along with a party is like having 2 extra people to split xp with.

Though I'd go so far as to recommend just going with a single class Assassin or bounty hunter. They're extremely powerful classes when used properly (though I'm more partial to the bounty hunter myself), and unlike a plain thief, have benefits for actually going into the higher levels. A plain thief gets pretty much all their benefit by 13 (x5 BS), and will most likely have locks, traps, DI, set traps maxed out with a good chunk of points in Hide/MS or Pickpockets. They really don't progress much after that.

Contrasted with the assassin who's Poison weapon strength and daily usages continue to increase, as well as gaining an additional x2 BS by 21...though due to their skill penalty they'll only be catching up to the skill point total a 13 plain thief would have at about 16-17 anyway.

The Bounty hunter's special traps continue to gain daily usages, and their effect changes immensely at 16 (for the worse...16-20 is probably the worst spot of playing a BH) and then again at 21 (game-breakingly powerful and combines well with the epic traps you start getting soon after).

All thief basic snares powerful up and gain additional uses as well...at 11 they gain a extra damage and a poison dot, 16 they basically double in damage, and at 21 they basically double in damage again and force the target to save or die.


For HLA, UAI opens up a lot of new strategies, since you can now basically pretend to be a mage, by casting spells from scrolls, and wear any items you want, covering a lot of potential weaknesses. Assassination is nice, especially if combined with 2 speed weapons, IH and a time stop trap. The spike and time stop epic traps are pretty neat...though the fireball traps tend to be a little lackluster, imo.

And Greater evasion is just ridiculously awesome. As is Avoid death.

Nazad

A kensai can fully specialize in a weapon prior to dualing to thief. A kensai/thief can only wear armor after getting an HLA (high level ability) called use any item. It does exactly what its name indicates. Until then, you're out of luck. And yes, after your thief level is one higher than kensai, all kensai abilities return.

In terms of when to dual a thief to mage, I think it depends on how long you can live without your thief abilities. If you reached level 10 in BG1 (160,000 xp), you could start Shadows of Amn by immediately multiclassing to mage. You'd have x4 backstab, not x5, but you'd reach level 11 mage (375,000 xp) pretty quickly and get your thief abilities back.

Backstab for a thief maxes out at x5 at level 13. Many people would consider level 13 (660,000 xp) to be the highest level you should take if you want to dual to mage. Level 14 mage requires 1,500,000 xp, though, so you'd spend most of Shadows of Amn waiting for your thief abilities to return.

I personally would recommend a multiclass thief/mage over a dual class thief/mage. No fussing around with losing your abilities and it's fun.