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BG2: Mazzy Fentan, perhaps a Paladin?

toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
in Feature Requests
One of my least favorite things about the earlier editions of D&D is the race restrictions on certain classes. It's a shame that my Dwarf cannot be a Monk, or that Mazzy Fentan cannot become a Paladin as her heart desires.

And then Dorn walks in, a Half-Orc Blackguard, even though only humans can be Paladins and Paladin archetypes.

I have two complaints here. One, breaking the rules for a new NPC. Yes he is cool, but I feel that it is inconsistent. Two, in BG2 Mazzy cannot be a Paladin SPECIFICALLY because she is a Halfling. Now we have nonhumans who can be Paladins, when she REALLY wanted to be one. I know Blackguard isn't a Paladin per se, but it is similar in the mechanics.

All I am asking is to consider changing Mazzy to a Paladin. Heck, she even has Lay on Hands already! Only problem I see is her race (again, annoys me), and her Charisma score.

Thoughts? Responses? Let me know!

Comments

  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    I agree. One time, I changed her class to paladin cavalier via shadowkeeper. For some reason, she was still able to use her bow through.
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    edited December 2012
    I will certainly either Shadowkeeper her (or some other mod) to be a Paladin if she is still a fighter in BG2:EE. Weird that she could still use her bow as a Cavalier...Though, one of my Cavaliers could use slings at one point.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    I think it has to do with the character creation. The cavalier at the start of the games cant use missile weapons. I think this penalty is a flag value. When I changed Mazzy from fighter to cavalier, I didnt turn on the flag and Mazzy was able to use all missile weapons.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    good point, if they allow michael dorn to be a paladin kit as a half-orc then half-lings should be able to be paladins as well
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    smeagolheart said:

    good point, if they allow michael dorn to be a paladin kit as a half-orc then half-lings should be able to be paladins as well

    Is this a joke, or does Michael Dorn seriously voice Dorn??
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    That 'chip' is well represented by her having 3 less Charisma than needed I suppose.
  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    I would prefer opening up of paladins to other classes, if not for all, at least have it moddable in the end. That way someone can open up paladins to other races and then create a quest where Mazzy is able to overcome the "chip" and attain true knighthood, becoming a full fledged paladin.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    There exist a mod, which gives her opportunity to become Paladin via some quest or something. Never played with it, thought, so my knowledge is limited to just that.

    Personally, I think that making her an "official" Paladin would beat the point out of her character. Wasn't she living proof, that everybody can walk the path of bravery and injustice, no matter the race or small posture? I really like that in her: she follows her way of life, even thought she can't be a "officially accepted" in her role.
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    If they want to restrict the classes to certain races, I can kind of understand that, but NPC Tieflings are allowed to be bards (Haer'Dalis) and Half-Orcs are allowed to be Blackguards (Dorn).

    I don't think it would change the point of her character too much. If she had to work towards it at the end, I think that would be cool. Even starting as it doesn't bug me. she still wouldn't be all that respected even if she was an official Paladin because she is a Halfling. I don't think that the people who don't consider her noble or worthy enough to be a knight will really change their opinion because her character sheet says Paladin. If they change their minds because of the abilities she gets as a Paladin, then all I have to say is...she already has Lay on Hands!
    ZelgadisGW said:


    Personally, I think that making her an "official" Paladin would beat the point out of her character. Wasn't she living proof, that everybody can walk the path of bravery and injustice, no matter the race or small posture? I really like that in her: she follows her way of life, even thought she can't be a "officially accepted" in her role.

    I agree, and I think that is exactly why she should be a Paladin. She follows the path without getting much out of it, she does for it righteousness and justice rather than recognition. She deserves to be a Paladin more than most of them (perhaps after a quest of some sort). I realize that would involve changing NPCs that Overhaul might not be allowed to do, but it would still be nice.
  • KithrixxKithrixx Member Posts: 215
    No.

    Minsc is not a Berserker/Barbarian, Mazzy should not be a Paladin. The "rule breaking" has happened before (see: Haer'Dalis being a Tiefling). A major part of Mazzy's character is attempting to be a Paladin but not being able to for a wide variety of reasons, and changing her class to Paladin would annul much of her character development and backstory.

    Shadowkeeper functions with Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, so I imagine that it'll function with BG:EE2 as well. If you feel this strongly about it, mod her class to Paladin or some variant. Beamdog does not hold the right to make this change, and even if they did, I would be steadfastly against it anyways.
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    @Kithrixx
    Minsc is not a Berserker, but as you said "rule breaking" has happened, and I think it is a more appropriate class for him. Even if Mazzy attempting to be a Paladin as part of her story means she shouldn't be one, I feel that Minsc is a different story.
    As for Beamdog not being able to change her, you make a very good point. I understand they probably can't so I suppose it is just a hope/dream of mine rather than something I expect in BG2:EE.
    As for her attempting to become a Paladin, that is one of the reasons I suggested perhaps making it an end to some side quest of hers (again, I realize they probably aren't allowed, but if it could be than this suggestion could be considered). The "rule breaking" isn't a factor there, and if she completed some sort of rite of passage to earn her status, it could maybe be justified.
    Also, what is the wide variety of reasons? I can think of 2. 1.) Race: If the race is THAT big of an issue, I would like to make a note that Forgotten Realms has accepted Halflings as Paladins in further editions after 2nd Ed. D&D, it was simply a mechanical aspect in 2nd Ed. that only humans could be Paladins.
    2.) 3-less Charisma than necessary. That part actually is unfortunate, but if Anomen can gain some Wisdom from a personal quest, maybe Mazzy could as well (again, perhaps Beamdog can't change personal quests/add them).
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited December 2012
    I never once though about how a Half-Orc was a Paladin kit ......

    *mind blown*

    @Aosaw & @toanwrath are absolutely right about Mazzy.
    Post edited by bigdogchris on
  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 332
    Put the Blackguard kit in the appropriate Fighter tab instead and we're all set.
    As for Mazzy, I like her the way she is to be honest. Her LoH is superior to a Paladin's anyway. xD
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    edited December 2012
    Zanian said:

    Put the Blackguard kit in the appropriate Fighter tab instead and we're all set.
    As for Mazzy, I like her the way she is to be honest. Her LoH is superior to a Paladin's anyway. xD

    Yeah, and she is able to Grand Mastery the bow, and she levels faster. In truth, she is possibly better as a fighter. However, I feel that she deserves to have her character sheet say 'Paladin' next to her portrait.
    EDIT: Her LoH is better than a Paladin's???
  • MegatomicMegatomic Member Posts: 3
    In a banter, if you have both Minsc and Mazzy in your party, when Mazzy dies, Minsc shouts in rage and vows vengeance for "this paladin's heart." I'm not sure; this banter may be added through Unfinished Business or BG2Tweak or some other mod, but as the line is fully voice-acted, I think it stands as sufficient evidence of developer opinion/intent.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    toanwrath said:

    One of my least favorite things about the earlier editions of D&D is the race restrictions on certain classes. It's a shame that my Dwarf cannot be a Monk, or that Mazzy Fentan cannot become a Paladin as her heart desires.

    A good DM will throw the rules out if you can provide a good RP background for your character so I've never viewed the rules as terrible restrictive. Minsc's wisdom is illegal for a ranger, but he's got his head wound and a hamster to explain it.

    So while I don't object to Mazzy being a paladin because 'OMG RULES', I think I agree with the sentiment a lot of folks have already expressed: Mazzy's striving for an ideal that even she knows she can't reach, and that drive is an essential and compelling part of her personality. If she really is a paladin, she becomes yet another one-dimensional, goody two-shoes paladin stereotype--the absence of that is what makes her interesting.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2013
    Doesn't she already basically get most of the abilities of a paladin but has better saving throws (at least vs spells, death, and wands)? (+4 for shorty saves vs +2 for paladin)
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    @Megatomic -
    Megatomic said:

    In a banter, if you have both Minsc and Mazzy in your party, when Mazzy dies, Minsc shouts in rage and vows vengeance for "this paladin's heart." I'm not sure; this banter may be added through Unfinished Business or BG2Tweak or some other mod, but as the line is fully voice-acted, I think it stands as sufficient evidence of developer opinion/intent.

    If they had intended Mazzy to be an actual Paladin they would have made her one, regardless if what Minsc says. It's not like there was anything stopping them from doing AI mechanically, and it's not like they had shunned away from breaking the 2nd Ed rules when it came to other characters.
  • FubbyFubby Member Posts: 189
    Personally I just think almost all of the racial restrictions should be removed. But I can use shadowkeeper for that so not a big deal.
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231
    Mazzy is limited by society's views on what a paladin should be, I think, not developer concerns about respecting some rules. Society expects her to be some human noble who rushes in the thick of battle, not just a pure-hearted warrior, so as a halfling who favors bows she will never be accepted into the order.

    Blackguards on the other hand are already seen as vile demon-worshiping warriors who get unholy powers from whatever twisted deity they choose to follow. And whereas paladins have an order, I doubt power-seeking blackguards band together and impose "joining restrictions". Most commoners already view half-orcs as evil creatures to be suspicious of... what are they going to do if they see a brute of a half-orc draining an enemy's life, go to him and tell him it's not socially acceptable for a half-orc to do that?

    I think quite a few racial restrictions should be dropped, but NPCs should be left alone. Their class choices have a background.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    edited August 2013
    I agree that she shouldn't be a Paladin in the game, but I I'd like to see her get some "official" Paladin recognition in the post-ToB character notes(i.e. one Paladin order or other making her a honorary member or somesuch).
    Kithrixx said:

    No.

    Minsc is not a Berserker/Barbarian, Mazzy should not be a Paladin.

    Minsc is not a Berserker/Barbarian likely only because there were no kits in original Baldur's Gate. I wouldn't mind making him one in EE, at least it would make him suck less.
  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    edited August 2013
    Since the game is based off 2nd edition the reasoning behind human being the only one able to be paladins is that they are humanities ideal. This ideal is the sole reason why only humans can be paladins since they are not the ideal for other races.

    So basing it off this Mazzy herself is only emulating the human ideal without being human which in turn makes her unable to be a paladin.

    If you want an example of a paladin the 2nd edition player's guide gives Lancelot as a paladin as he is humanities ideal knight, champion and warrior.
  • TheGreatKhanTheGreatKhan Member Posts: 106
    With all her special abilities and whatnot, you'd actually probably be making Mazzy weaker if she were a paladin class.
  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    She would be weaker, would lose access to gm and have a weaker LoH, for some weak spells with excessively short durations.
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