Dual class Imoen. Wise?

Aleque

Hi

I am not that far in the game. Just did Nashkel. I have finally the ability to dual class Imoen to a Mage. Is it a good idea?
My party is of good allignment consisting of me (Paladin), Misc, Dynaheir, Khalid, Jaheira and Imoen. I have very little experience with creating a dual class character. All I know is that it takes longer to level each of the classes and that the XP is split amongs two classes. Is it a good idea to dual class her early in the game, let alone ever? Will she not be duller at her thieving skills like find traps?

bdeonovic

dual class is different from multi-class. Multi-class (like jeheira) means you level both classes at same time. Dual class means you level up one class and then SWITCH over to the other. You lose all benefits of your first class UNTIL you reach same lvl you had in your first class.

Dual class characters are strongest in game...but are handicapped early on since they have to lose their benefits from first class for awhile.

Multi-class typically don't get to get as high of a level as other chars, and level up slower, but can be good early on.



I hear dualing imoen over to a mage is very common (especially since she is dualed as such in BG2)


See: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3336/dual-class-vs-multiclass-pros-and-cons-for-those-of-us-who-are-new
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/75251-baldurs-gate/faqs/15202

Eudaemonium

To add to what bdeonovic said, however, it looks as if your party would be completely lacking a thief until Imoen regained her thief levels. Thus dualling her might not be the best idea for you.

nietzschelives

Dual-Classing is different from multi-classing. Multi-class characters choose two or three classes at character creation, and then split the experience evenly between the two, causing them to advance in levels at a delayed rate.
Dual-classing is something only humans can do. With a dual-class, the character permanently stops advancing in their old class and starts advancing in a new class. Further, Dual-class characters lose all of the abilities of their first class until the level of their new class exceeds their own.
For example, if you dual-class Imoen at level 3, then she would lose all of her thief abilities until she reached level 4 in her new class.
It's fine to dual-class Imoen early, but if you do you will need another thief, because Imoen's low level thief abilities will be insufficient for disarming late game traps (which can be brutal.) Typically people dual-class Imoen at either level 6 or 7. It should be noted that if you do this, Imoen will lose her thief abilities for a considerable time period. If you're a first-time player, dual-classing is generally not recommended.

Quartz

Dual-classing is entirely different from Multi-classing where the EXP is split amongst the two classes. With Dual-classing, you literally stop progressing in your first class and begin progression (from level 1) in the new class. You regain the abilities of your old class once you surpass the level of your old class (So a Fighter at level 3 dualing to Mage would regain their Fighter abilities at level 4).

For Imoen, it's not a bad idea to Dual-Class her. The thing is, Imoen is your only thief in your current party set up. If you really just don't enjoy thieving tactics that much (Backstabbing, setting traps, and weird tactical stuff like that), then sure, Dual-Class her. I would say Dual-Class her at Thief Level 6, she can still barely get to Level 9 Mage (the cap for mages) which is awesome. Make sure to max out her Find Traps and Open Locks as much as possible since she's your only thief. The other abilities are totally luxuries, but Finding Traps and Opening Locks is pretty much completely vital.

It's worth mentioning that regaining these levels obviously takes a long time, and for that period of time you will likely find Imoen to be pretty crappy. Once you hit a Mage level above Thief she's right as rain but until then she's kind of something you're going to have off on the side. As your only thief, you won't be able to explore any dungeons for that time, either.

If you find yourself lacking Arcane firepower then do it. Otherwise I wouldn't. Dynaheir is pretty good at this point, with her the only thing you really lack is Enchantment spells. Hardly the end of the world.

It's really complicated frankly, I wouldn't advise Dual-classing on your first couple of playthroughs. After that, of course, it can be fun to mess with it.

atcDave

I would not dual class Imoen with your party. You need the thief more than you need another Mage. In BG2 you have more need for two mages, and Imoen is assumed to have dualed in the past, the game itself will take care of that for you.
Folks who dual Immy in BG usually do so because they have another thief in the party.

CutlassJack

Imoen is your only thief, so you'll absolutely want to keep her as one on that playthrough.

Aleque

Thanks for the replies. I will keep her as pure thief then

and_then_or

Aleque, I don't mean to undermine your decsion but I think I'll undermine your decision.

At the suggestion of another thread I just complete a run-through dualing Imoen @ level 6 thief. It worked out very well.

I went through Chpt 4 / Cloakwood and a few other areas then farmed the last bit of XP's needed (ankheg lair) to get her up to mage lv 7. It seems like a good point in the game to do it. Some encounters are going to be a pain w/o a thief during this time but doable.

Then from Chpt 5 on wards you have %90 base in each find traps and open locks and a fire ball - cloud kill tossing mage swithcing over to a bow or crossbow to dish out all those wonderfull arrows/bolts of biting. And a haste buff. And imporved invisibilty buff.

So while you won't be putting any skill points into stealth or pickpocket, as a good aligned character you won't be pickpocketing and assinating, right?

Note that Dynaheir won't be able to learn fireball.

CutlassJack

But the counter to that is that he'll be stuck without any lockpicking skills whatsoever until mage levels are higher than Thief levels. And mage levels much slower than Thief.

So while I'll agree that stealth and pickpocket aren't at all critical for him, loss of any lock/trap functionality for most of the game will be. In BG2 thats a non issue because she starts past the hump levels. It will be less of an issue on subsequent playthroughs with different group setups.

Elendar

You lose all benefits of your first class UNTIL you reach same lvl you had in your first class.

This is slightly inaccurate... Your second class must reach one level HIGHER than your first class before you regain the abilities.

Metal_Hurlant

and_then_or said:

Note that Dynaheir won't be able to learn fireball.

When did this change? Dynaheir could learn Fireball in the original game.

and_then_or

@CutlassJack,

Dynaheir knows knock, so I had her learn that 4 times and was able to open all chests w/ minimal resting


@Metal_Hurlant

I belive fireball is in the oppostion school to Dynahiers specialization

Elendar

Metal_Hurlant said:

When did this change? Dynaheir could learn Fireball in the original game.

I don't think she was able to in the original since she's an Invoker who can't use Evocation spells..... She could use wand of fire though.

el_Maestro

Elendar said:

Metal_Hurlant said:

When did this change? Dynaheir could learn Fireball in the original game.

I don't think she was able to in the original since she's an Invoker who can't use Evocation spells..... She could use wand of fire though.

Yes, she can, cause fireball is form invocation school. And opposite to invocation is enchantment. Xan is Enchanter, and he can't use magic missle and fireball, what makes him probably the weakest mage in the game.

Elendar

el_Maestro said:

Yea, and fireball is form invocation school. And opposite to invocation is enchantment. Xan is Enchanter, and he can't use magic missle, and fireball, what makes him probably the weakest mage in the game.

Edit: Invocation can't use spells from the Enchantment school... so Dynaheir can use fireball.

Deucetipher

@el_maestro
Invocation is nice, but it's a bit overrated in my opinion. Skull Trap does the same amount of damage, though it can be a bit trickier to use. The best single target direct damage spell in the game is flame arrow, a conjuration, when cast by a max bard.

Frankly, I'd rather take Xan than Dynaheir. He can be decently effective with the moonblade with the right spells, and more importantly, I think losing invocation isn't as bad as losing out on conjuration and enchantment. No sleeps or charms, no summons or early mage armor. Just brutal.

Xan loses out on Cloudkill, basically. A really good spell, but the summons alone are better, I think.

On balance, I favor dual classing imoen. I usually just pick up safana while imoen is regaining levels, as Safana is basically a slightly worse version of Imoen. You can avoid the lighthouse area till imoen is 6, dual class her, head to the lighthouse and pick up a level 6 safana (depending on PC level, obviously, but you get the idea.) Safana puts skills in traps and locks without you, so you're pretty much set.

If you put all Immy's points in traps and locks, she can disarm and unlock anything in the game except maybe one or two traps in Durlag's. (The Tome altar, I think)

Metal_Hurlant

Deucetipher said:

Frankly, I'd rather take Xan than Dynaheir. He can be decently effective with the moonblade with the right spells, and more importantly, I think losing invocation isn't as bad as losing out on conjuration and enchantment. No sleeps or charms, no summons or early mage armor. Just brutal.

Xan loses out on Cloudkill, basically. A really good spell, but the summons alone are better, I think.

Actually Dynaheir can now learn more spells that she couldn't learn in the original game including summons. A list of spells currently I've come across where she can now learn in BGEE but couldn't learn in the original game.

Level 1: Armor, Grease
Level 3: Flame Arrow, Monster Summoning I

Since I'm only at Cloakwood Mines with Dynaheir, I assume she'll be able to learn more spells that she shouldn't be able to including Monster Summoning II.

colonel_burger

Go for it. You can always cast knock with dynaheir and use minsc as minesweeper ;-)

What's the opposite school for evocation? If you can't cast knock minsc should be able to headbutt most locks open.

Deucetipher

@Metal_Hurlant

Sweet, she gets conjuration now? I might have to roll her out again. Thanks for the heads up!

EDIT: Just checked it. The manual says both old schools are blocked, but the game says only charm/enchantment is opposed. This is great news for people who run good-aligned parties.

Metal_Hurlant

Add Ghost Armor and Monster Summoning II & III to the list of spells Dynaheir can learn that she couldn't before. Just checked it.

lDanielHolm

Elendar said:

Metal_Hurlant said:

When did this change? Dynaheir could learn Fireball in the original game.

I don't think she was able to in the original since she's an Invoker who can't use Evocation spells..... She could use wand of fire though.

Actually, Invokers specifically use Invocation/Evocation spells (as the school is properly known in 2e). In the original game, Dynaheir couldn't use Enchantment/Charm spells or Conjuration/Summoning spells, making her by far the weakest mage in the game.

Xan certainly isn't the weakest, though if Dynaheir is only barred from Enchantment/Charm now, it's a lot closer. Dynaheir may still be worse, as Enchantment/Charm is hard to lose, especially in the early game... though Xzar comes close, with his loss of Illusion.

To get back to the original topic, I consider it very wise to dual-class Imoen -- indeed, I consider it almost unavoidable, due to the lack of generalist wizards in the game and how deliciously perfect Imoen is for the task. The sweet-spot is when she hits around 90%-100% in Find Traps and Pick Locks (though the latter can slide, with copious use of Knock). If you want to absolutely maximize it, you can reach Thief level 7 and still manage to unlock your Thief abilities at Mage level 8 within the XP cap (70,000 for Thief, 90,000 for Mage). I would pick up Coran to act as my Thief while Imoen gets her magic up to snuff. (In your case, I'd recommend sending Dynaheir on a fatal scouting mission. Minsc will have a great time avenging her later. Alternatively, since you're a Paladin, send her into a tent or a building you don't plan to reenter, reform the party and kick her, and since she can't get to you to talk to you, she won't steal Minsc. But the other one is more fun.)

Elendar

lDanielHolm said:

Actually, Invokers specifically use Invocation/Evocation spells (as the school is properly known in 2e). In the original game, Dynaheir couldn't use Enchantment/Charm spells or Conjuration/Summoning spells, making her by far the weakest mage in the game.

Xan certainly isn't the weakest, though if Dynaheir is only barred from Enchantment/Charm now, it's a lot closer. Dynaheir may still be worse, as Enchantment/Charm is hard to lose, especially in the early game... though Xzar comes close, with his loss of Illusion.

To get back to the original topic, I consider it very wise to dual-class Imoen -- indeed, I consider it almost unavoidable, due to the lack of generalist wizards in the game and how deliciously perfect Imoen is for the task. The sweet-spot is when she hits around 90%-100% in Find Traps and Pick Locks (though the latter can slide, with copious use of Knock). If you want to absolutely maximize it, you can reach Thief level 7 and still manage to unlock your Thief abilities at Mage level 8 within the XP cap (70,000 for Thief, 90,000 for Mage). I would pick up Coran to act as my Thief while Imoen gets her magic up to snuff. (In your case, I'd recommend sending Dynaheir on a fatal scouting mission. Minsc will have a great time avenging her later. Alternatively, since you're a Paladin, send her into a tent or a building you don't plan to reenter, reform the party and kick her, and since she can't get to you to talk to you, she won't steal Minsc. But the other one is more fun.)

Yeah, I realize that... but I was a bit drunk when I was here before and was confused :P

Deucetipher

I like dualing her at 6. You can put one skill at 100 and the other at 85, or if you're like me, 90/95. Plus, you still hit max level (9) as a mage under the TotSC cap.

@IDanielHolm
For me, it's kind of a toss up between Edwin and Imoen. I think a DCed Immy is probably the best NPC in the game since she knocks out your thief requirement without really sacrificing anything. Edwin gets an absurd amount of spells though, and only loses out on divination, one of the best opposed schools. I mean, you lose identify, but that's not really that big of a deal, just costs gold. IMO, you really only lose out on one useful spell, detect invisibility. In BG2 you lose the incredibly useful True Sight (Seeing? I never remember which is cleric or wizard)

I'm glad they at least gave invokers Conjuration. Dynaheir was a terrible NPC (comparatively)

Loki330

All I'm going to say is: it's very ballsy going into Durlag's tower without a thief with maxed find/disarm traps.
Or stupid.

...
...I think I'll go with "stupid" actually.

Pantalion

On Ims: Definitely dual the heck out of her, then go hunt Basilisks.

On Dynaheir: Sleep, Emotion, Greater Malison, Domination and Chaos. Yeah, there's not much in it, but she's still the worst, Fireball deals damage, Sleep or Emotion win battles.

Andtalath

Err, Dynaheir has always been able to use fireball, it's her specialty school.

Also, the reason Enhanced edition allows more spells in general is due to the fact that BG enhanced specialty mages so they have only one opposite school.

sandmanCCL

Imoen dual-classed at 6 to mage makes her the most durable mage in the entire game. She's the only potential one with both stat-bonuses to dexterity and constitution, and wouldn't you know it both are as high as you'd ever need.

Assuming you dump all her points into find traps and open lock, you won't run into anything you can't disarm or unlock at just level 6, too. Single-class thieves don't really bring a whole lot to the table because they struggle to land blows (comparitively to any other melee class), and it's not like there's ever a situation in which having more arcane magic is ever a bad thing.

Trying to make her regain her levels is the challenge, obviously. If your party is full, that's easier said than done. I typically boot the rest of the party out and then go do some things that yield high XP til she's at least a few levels into mage.