Blackguard and disadvantages? *spoiler'ish*

HexHammer

I can't really see any of the disadvantages being disadvantag.

- must be eivl, but it's a matter of choise and only cost a few coins to compensate with donations.
- can't detect evi, what? I NEVER detected evil ..EVER!!!! ..they all dies just aswell.
- can't cast protection from evil, that silly spell that only last 3 rounds?
- can't cast lay on hands, it sucks anyways! He should be cutting things up in very fine pieces anyways, not trying to stich things together when a child m ..eh when a priest should do so instead! Besides he got that absorb health which slighty is the same.

Philhelm

I won't debate whether the Blackguard kit gives up much for its advantages, but I will say that Protection from Evil isn't a silly spell. +2 AC against evil creatures, which is the majority of them, isn't something to balk at, especially since the Paladin can cast it once per level. I always use Protection from Evil with my Paladins.

HexHammer

Fine it may have good use, but I say it's easily outdone by the immunity to lvl drain, fear and specially our lovly aura!

Mornmagor

When you think that Blackguard is too strong for his disadvantages, take a look at the Cavalier and calm yourself.

It works every time.

Blackguard is solid.

BTW protection from evil is tons of times per day per level, plus it's +2 versus everything as far as i know, at least in the old game. Aura is once per day, and immunities is something every paladin kit has.

Absorb health is not as reliable as LoH. It has a save or no effect.

Elendar

Philhelm said:

I won't debate whether the Blackguard kit gives up much for its advantages, but I will say that Protection from Evil isn't a silly spell. +2 AC against evil creatures, which is the majority of them, isn't something to balk at, especially since the Paladin can cast it once per level. I always use Protection from Evil with my Paladins.

I agree that it can be useful.... but I always forget to cast it... lol...

And Inquisitor > Cavalier

HexHammer

what's fiendish thingies?

Mornmagor

Indeed Inquisitor > Cavalier, it's just that Cavalier has absurdly tons of things he gets for practically no penalty, and since HexHammer said that his(Blackguard's) disadvantages were of no importance i thought i'd mention it

Fiendish thingies = any demon i guess.

Elendar

They should have increased how long Protection from Evil lasts in Baldur's Gate.... I enjoy how it lasts for 1 hour per level in NWN2...

Or is it just 1 hour period? Doesn't matter I guess.

DarkDogg

In the BG1 reality Lay on hands is a very very helpfull spell.
And like @Philhelm said, Protection from Evil is a helpfull spell too.
immunity 2 lvl drain isn't very helpfull in BG1.

The main disadvantage is that Blackguards can not Animate dead :-( They should probably in BG2:EE. The skill is on the list in the game. !!!MAJOR SPOILER!!! FTW :-)))
And he has no hit\damage bonuses...
He can not wear Carsomyr :-(((

In BG2 setting my favourite kit was Undead Hunter... But now, it will definetely be my BlackGuard, imported from BG:EE :-)

Also the BlackGuard kit should be placed to the Fighter class kits, not to the Paladins.

Mornmagor

He can animate dead through spells, and he has rebuke undead @DarkDogg :]

This Blackguard is a paladin.

DarkDogg

No. This spell was in the INNATE skills section lvl 3...
Maybe this was just a mistake by the programmers and they forgot to delete this stuff before the release.

Mornmagor

I know, but even without it, he can animate dead normally through his priest spells, and take command of undead through rebuke undead, so the phrase "cannot animate dead", is technically wrong.

HexHammer

Chav may be good with +4 to burn down 1 enemy at time, but BG is good with support for the whole party when the aura kicks in, specially at high lvl.

DarkDogg

Mornmagor said:

he can animate dead normally through his priest spells

but only in BG2:EE :-)

Dazzu

If you ever want to summon a demon... oh wait you have Radius 10 by then.

Mechalibur

Mornmagor said:

Absorb health is not as reliable as LoH. It has a save or no effect.

It's supposed to, anyway. I've been testing it out, and it seems to work every single time.

lakrids

Really all the paladins classes are rather powerful right from the start.

When I role played D&D, would the GM make it absolutely clear, that it was a difficult class to role play, and he would demand that player would follow the paladin ethos to the letter. It worked well, to go against some of the players power gamer tendencies.

Dazzu

PFE is even better in IWD. Everything is considered 'evil' (even if their alignment is not) and the AC bonuses stack from Priest, Mage and Paladin versions.

HexHammer

Dazzu said:

PFE is even better in IWD. Everything is considered 'evil' (even if their alignment is not) and the AC bonuses stack from Priest, Mage and Paladin versions.

OoooOOoooOhhh!!! Didn't know that!!! Now it suddenly seems like a MUST HAVE!!

Madhax

As some other have said, the blackguard is quite powerful compared to an ordinary paladin, but compared to the paladin kits I'd say he's simply average. Inquisitor dispel is ridiculously powerful, for example.

HexHammer

Madhax said:

As some other have said, the blackguard is quite powerful compared to an ordinary paladin, but compared to the paladin kits I'd say he's simply average. Inquisitor dispel is ridiculously powerful, for example.

Forgive my ignorence, but how is DM more powerful than not being able to turn and cast priest spells?

elminster

Doesn't protection from evil last 2 rounds/ level. So by level 5 it would last a turn?

Elendar

HexHammer said:

Madhax said:

As some other have said, the blackguard is quite powerful compared to an ordinary paladin, but compared to the paladin kits I'd say he's simply average. Inquisitor dispel is ridiculously powerful, for example.

Forgive my ignorence, but how is DM more powerful than not being able to turn and cast priest spells?

Typically you'll have a cleric that can turn undead for you.. so who needs that... and paladin spell-casting wasn't really all that great... Where-as a Dispel Magic at 2X the Inquisitor's level will remove the magic of almost any mage..

Its Super Effective.

HexHammer

elminster said:

Doesn't protection from evil last 2 rounds/ level. So by level 5 it would last a turn?

I havn't seen a duration increase, that's why I in the first place was sceptical about the spell.

elminster

HexHammer said:

elminster said:

Doesn't protection from evil last 2 rounds/ level. So by level 5 it would last a turn?

I havn't seen a duration increase, that's why I in the first place was sceptical about the spell.

Just tested it by making a mage and then increasing her level to 5. it looks like at level 5 it does last for a minute, so I assume the description in game is correct.

Dragonspear

@Elendar

My old Cavalier would like to have a word with you about paladin spellcasting not being all that great. There are some good buff spells that can make a late game paladin even stronger. Draw Upon Holy Might, Death Ward and some other melee str buff, as well as negative plane protection and a lesser restoration when you come upon vampires.

Compare that to the Inquisitors Dispel Magic where even aiming slightly off can strip your party of many buffs they had just cast.

Madhax

Dragonspear said:

@Elendar

My old Cavalier would like to have a word with you about paladin spellcasting not being all that great. There are some good buff spells that can make a late game paladin even stronger. Draw Upon Holy Might, Death Ward and some other melee str buff, as well as negative plane protection and a lesser restoration when you come upon vampires.

Compare that to the Inquisitors Dispel Magic where even aiming slightly off can strip your party of many buffs they had just cast.

Cavaliers are definitely superior to Inquisitors in terms of versatility, and their downside is much more manageable. Inquisitors just shine particularly well against spellcasters, especially in BG2 and beyond. Friendly fire is hardly an issue; if you hit an enemy mage with an Inquisitor's dispel, their protections are simply gone. Which means they're simply dead.

Mornmagor

Paladin spellcasting is enough, you can use doom very effectively, combined with a Blackguard's aura, and spells like animate dead, draw upon holy might, death ward, are extremely useful. Armor of faith is pretty nice with aura as well. With Rebuke Undead that the Blackguard has, you can pretty much have your own undead army even.

Still, Inquisitor's abilities themselves are more powerful per se, but even the all mighty antimage Inquisitor needs breach to be 100% effective, which he doesn't have. Dispel magic doesn't work against some protective spells, so either way if you won't have a mage with you, you'll need to cheat the AI to beat high level mages or liches. Inquisitor is called best against casters, but really he's just faster, he can't take them down by himself if they have access to certain protective spells.

Also, Inquisitor is not like a Paladin at all, no turn, no spells, no LoH, he's like a fighter with special abilities for dispelling.

I don't think anyone is more breakingly powerful than the other, although i do feel that Blackguard, if used correctly with his abilities, rebuke and proper spells, can be quite troublesome for any enemy, he's not a one trick pony.

An army to take you down - animate, rebuke - check.

Ways to cripple you or your damage - aura, doom, armor of faith - check.

Buff or protect or even heal himself - check.

Weapon against casters - poison weapon - check.

I like him because if you use his abilities together cleverly, he can be quite a powerhouse. Little things that add on top of each other.

Inquisitor can dispel quickly, illusions as well, but he still needs breach to be THE animage, just like everyone else.

The Cavalier has more abilities, and has his own merits, although i like that the Blackguard can use his undead army as well for numbers :]

Yeah i like the Blackguard, he doesn't have something that breaks the game by itself, but what he does is working combined very well, his abilities complement one another(plus, you get to press a lot of buttons ).

Aasimar069

Elendar said:

I agree that it can be useful.... but I always forget to cast it... lol...

And Inquisitor > Cavalier

Not in the first BG ;-)


Mage encounters are a joke (I have finished again the game yesterday morning).

HexHammer

Elendar said:

HexHammer said:

Madhax said:

As some other have said, the blackguard is quite powerful compared to an ordinary paladin, but compared to the paladin kits I'd say he's simply average. Inquisitor dispel is ridiculously powerful, for example.

Forgive my ignorence, but how is DM more powerful than not being able to turn and cast priest spells?

Typically you'll have a cleric that can turn undead for you.. so who needs that... and paladin spell-casting wasn't really all that great... Where-as a Dispel Magic at 2X the Inquisitor's level will remove the magic of almost any mage..

Its Super Effective.

Like to keep my parties small, and a rogue as the absolute minimum as NPC, at times there won't be a child mo ..eh priest, but a hippie instead.