Most Powerful Caster?

secretfire

Not a new player, I just wanted to garner opinions. I like playing a caster. I like having ALL THE POWER OF THE UNIVERSE at my command, and being the most powerful member of the party - even if I have no hitpoints and can't hit anything. If I have hitpoints and do great in combat, wonderful - but its not a requirement. I used to play Druidic Sorcerer's exclusively, but it could be months before I can play those again.

So tell me this. Whats the most powerful caster? Wild Mage/Cleric (via Shadowkeeper?) Pure Mage? Druidic Avenger?

Tell me how I can make the foes of quake before me, and the rest of my party irrelevent!

Stargazer5781

Always been a fan of sorcerers myself Gnome illusionists start with 19 Int which is nice. Kensai-mage is a well-known brokenly powerful dual class.

MurrayConfederacy

The most magical class would be Cleric/Mage, however the most powerful would probably either be the standard mage or the sorcerer. A mage is powerful due to it's versatility, however a sorcerer is powerful due to the number of times it can cast a spell gain and again (spam fireballs!).

Renulan

Just roll a sorceror, have a good knowledge of D&D spell effects, immunities, and you'll never get scratched.

ZanathKariashi

Technically speaking, the most raw power would be a wild mage, with a sorcerer a close 2nd. Both have their share of disadvantages though. The wild mage has to contend with random surges (they get A LOT less severe and predictable as your level goes up) but can potentially have access to every mage spell in the game (at least 6 of which don't have to be memorized ahead of time and ignore the 1 spell per round limit), along with a long list of beneficial surge effects, and the sorcerer requires VERY good knowledge of what spells you need to cover all possible situations within a few limited choices with no ability to trade them out if you made a mistake.

Darkcloud

If you remove the level cap and play solo sorcerer you will be strong enough to kill everything in the game with ease after a short while but the beginning will be brutal.

Madhax

I like playing cleric/mages. Their versatility is quite nice, as is their longevity in a drawn-out encounter. I also like that, since it's all but impossible to roll them with maximum power stats, playing a C/M "forces" me not to be a powergamer and to compromise on my stat rolls more.

Plus you can't effectively play one in 3rd edition, so take advantage of them in 2nd!

secretfire

See, the thing of it is - I don't really want Neera to outshine me. I want my character to be an arsenal of destruction. I remember going through BG2, where I'd leave my party behind, except perhaps for Yoshimo, stealthed, for planning purposes (unless I just invisabilitied) - and I'd just fireball or cloudkill the groups of enemies, one by one, every dungeon, or come up with elaborate magical traps and devious methods.

But in BGEE, the calculation is different. As mentioned, Neera is fairly powerful on her own after a few levels, and its low-enough level that you don't really hit the magical potential of Mages. So I was thinking that perhaps the calculations would change. Would an Avenger's special druidic forms (with its limited mage spells and quick levelup) - make it a viable contender for magical power? Would a multiclass (shadowkeeper) Wild Mage/Cleric's versatility make up for its almost non-existant spell progression?

I guess the consensus is that sorcerer is still the king of the roost, though.

badbromance

Madhax said:

I like playing cleric/mages. Their versatility is quite nice, as is their longevity in a drawn-out encounter. I also like that, since it's all but impossible to roll them with maximum power stats, playing a C/M "forces" me not to be a powergamer and to compromise on my stat rolls more.

Plus you can't effectively play one in 3rd edition, so take advantage of them in 2nd!

Well you could have a character with 3 levels of wizard and cleric than take the mystic theruge (spelling?)
By level 20 you would basically be a 15wiz/15cleric.

Madhax

badbromance said:

Madhax said:

I like playing cleric/mages. Their versatility is quite nice, as is their longevity in a drawn-out encounter. I also like that, since it's all but impossible to roll them with maximum power stats, playing a C/M "forces" me not to be a powergamer and to compromise on my stat rolls more.

Plus you can't effectively play one in 3rd edition, so take advantage of them in 2nd!

Well you could have a character with 3 levels of wizard and cleric than take the mystic theruge (spelling?)
By level 20 you would basically be a 15wiz/15cleric.

Not sure what you're referring to. My only experience with 3rd edition is IWD2, so if there's a way to effectively split between two spellcasting classes in PnP 3rd edition, I don't know about it. I could therefore be wrong about not being able to rock a cleric/mage.

ZanathKariashi

IWD2 was basically a 3.5 mod for the infinity engine. That was HEAVILY biased in favor of sorcerers.

Mage in 2nd and 3rd edition PnP are supposed to learn 2 total new spells of any spell levels they can cast every time they gain a level, with learning scrolls allowing them to pick up new spells without level up, but having a chance at failure. None of the infinity engine games implement that. Giving Sorcerers a massive advantage for acquiring spells since they can get them regardless of drop rates or where the game designers placed them (IWD2 has almost no spell scrolls at all, and the few it does are junk spells, meaning a mage is basically a waste of a class in that game).

valky

ZanathKariashi said:

IWD2 was basically a 3.5 mod for the infinity engine. That was HEAVILY biased in favor of sorcerers.

Yeah! The true artillery in IWD2 is the sorc, while you use or abuse the mage only to add some levels to your decoy/tank for all the protection/(de-)buff stuff specially in HoF.

I would never ever play a wild mage in IWD2/HoF if that'd be even possible....I guess should I ever play BGEE again I will grab Edwin or Dynaheir instead. The randomization of effects, which "sometimes" occur can have a nifty impact. Some might prefer it that way and I'll stick to Neera thru my current game but I sometimes get the feeling that it's not only a 5% backfire chance [leaving Dweomer aside..]

Riolathel

ZanathKariashi said:

IWD2 was basically a 3.5 mod for the infinity engine. That was HEAVILY biased in favor of sorcerers.

Mage in 2nd and 3rd edition PnP are supposed to learn 2 total new spells of any spell levels they can cast every time they gain a level, with learning scrolls allowing them to pick up new spells without level up, but having a chance at failure. None of the infinity engine games implement that. Giving Sorcerers a massive advantage for acquiring spells since they can get them regardless of drop rates or where the game designers placed them (IWD2 has almost no spell scrolls at all, and the few it does are junk spells, meaning a mage is basically a waste of a class in that game).

I beg to differ.. i played a transmuter through iwd2 and it was easily my most useful class right next to my bard..

Emotion: Hope + Haste = GG.

Btw you are aware you can buy spell scrolls right? Plus all the level 9 spells have to be found so i'm not sure why you say the scrolls are "junk spells"

Madhax

Riolathel said:

ZanathKariashi said:

IWD2 was basically a 3.5 mod for the infinity engine. That was HEAVILY biased in favor of sorcerers.

Mage in 2nd and 3rd edition PnP are supposed to learn 2 total new spells of any spell levels they can cast every time they gain a level, with learning scrolls allowing them to pick up new spells without level up, but having a chance at failure. None of the infinity engine games implement that. Giving Sorcerers a massive advantage for acquiring spells since they can get them regardless of drop rates or where the game designers placed them (IWD2 has almost no spell scrolls at all, and the few it does are junk spells, meaning a mage is basically a waste of a class in that game).

I beg to differ.. i played a transmuter through iwd2 and it was easily my most useful class right next to my bard..

Emotion: Hope + Haste = GG.

Btw you are aware you can buy spell scrolls right? Plus all the level 9 spells have to be found so i'm not sure why you say the scrolls are "junk spells"

Agreed, my mages were always my all-star characters. I usually would have at least one mage and one sorcerer in a party, so I had both versatility and raw power. Might have run into trouble if I had more than one mage looking for scrolls, though.

raywind

Most powerfull caster is bard(kits or not)

ZanathKariashi

UNtrue, even if you only count BG1, a Wild mage can potentially hit caster level 14...and since positive changes have a minimum of one, any positive caster shift will be equal or greater then a bard for spell casting (with more spells). Especially nice with skull trap, since it can potentially hit for up to 14d6, and you could attempt about 12 5th level spells. Sorcerer's don't even get those, and can't cast anywhere near that many.

raywind

Thats true but while blade doesnt have any drawbacks and many + sides wild mage had a lot of disadvantages.

ZanathKariashi

The blade's drawback is that they suck....their thac0 is crap, they never get more then 1 base attack, unless dual-wielding, they can't specialize (except under specific circumstances), they barely get any proficiencies, offensive spin barely helps, due to how limited the daily uses are, they need dual speed weapons just to be pass-able in melee (meaning they're horrible in BG1). Sure they level up pretty quick, but they're still a poor mans F/M. Even UAI barely helps because of the aforementioned requirement of speed weapons to not suck.


Funny...I don't see any disadvantages on the wild mage list...wild surges are a class feature, not a bonus or penalty.

Time4Tiddy

If we are just talking about BG:EE and not talking about BG2, the Druid Avenger is the way to go for raw casting power. Adding the BG2 druid spells + the Avenger spells AND the Druid can get to level 10 meaning extra level 5 spell slots. The druid can use all 3 of the wisdom tomes to keep adding bonus spells, which you can use to cast the "mage" Avenger spells! You will seriously have a crapton of spells if you start with 18 and +3.

The unique shapechanges are OP for BG1 if you want to melee, and you can still get a 16 con. There is no downside.

Baptor

My vote is for the Sorcerer. I played both a Mage and a Sorcerer all the way BG1-TOB and the Sorcerer outclassed the mage in every respect. Sure I COULD prepare any spell on my Mage, but (especially in vanilla) there are only so many useful spells, and the Sorcerer can pick up most of them.
By the time I hit TOB I could defeat almost any encounter with my Sorcerer ALONE. (Three best spells in the game: Project Image, Time Stop, Improved Alacrity)

@Time4tiddy
Do you know where one can find the Avenger specific spells in a list?

Darkcloud

I would sum it like this:
Wild Mages: If you are willing to reload a lot because of bad surges and stuff they are the best if you have all the spells you want to use in your spell book because they can turn their level 1 slots in any level spell that they know.
Sorcerers: They are the best if you know which spells you want to use. They have the most casts per level and still can cast spells you rarely use but need in special situations from scrolls.
Mages: Only good if you don't know the spells well enough and maybe for convenience as a second caster, I would recomend Mage/cleric in that case.

Zanian

Don't forget the dual-classed ranger/cleric (or multi if you're playing without exp cap). A mage/cleric will probably have more pure magical destruction at their fingertips, but considering the versatility of the ranger/cleric, I'd choose one of them any day.

ZanathKariashi

@Baptor
Chromatic orb (1st), web (2nd), lightning bolt (3rd), chaos (4th), improved invisibility (5th), chain lightning (6th)

@Zanian
Versatility that results from an uncorrected engine exploit (their spell casting pools are supposed to be separate, as they are in PnP). I prefer my casters to be legit, thanks.

Zanian

@ZanathKariashi It's no more an exploit than playing a F/M/T or Kensai/Mage, both of which are still much more powerful than the R/C.

From a lore perspective, it doesn't seem that strange that a cleric, who was trained in the arts of nature, would be able to use the magical powers of said nature as he/she progresses in the divine arts. Seems legit imho.

Besides, there are a million PnP violations in the BG series. No sense bumping our heads over every single one of them.

ZanathKariashi

Those aren't exploits though. They're legal classes, with legal implementation of their abilities, both in PnP and BG.

The reason the R/C is an exploit is because they're supposed to have separate spell books. (Even if you made a Ranger/Druid, which is a perfectly legal PnP multiclass for half-elves, they'd still have separate spell books despite casting the same spells, since the Ranger casts his spells at a much lower level then the druid half would (and gets fewer spells per level, no wisdom bonus, and a max of spell lvl 3).

A cleric trained in nature, would be a mythos cleric, and would lose about half their cleric sphere's in exchange for looser equipment restrictions and access to spells clerics wouldn't normally get.

Kurumi

Madhax said:

badbromance said:

Madhax said:

I like playing cleric/mages. Their versatility is quite nice, as is their longevity in a drawn-out encounter. I also like that, since it's all but impossible to roll them with maximum power stats, playing a C/M "forces" me not to be a powergamer and to compromise on my stat rolls more.

Plus you can't effectively play one in 3rd edition, so take advantage of them in 2nd!

Well you could have a character with 3 levels of wizard and cleric than take the mystic theruge (spelling?)
By level 20 you would basically be a 15wiz/15cleric.

Not sure what you're referring to. My only experience with 3rd edition is IWD2, so if there's a way to effectively split between two spellcasting classes in PnP 3rd edition, I don't know about it. I could therefore be wrong about not being able to rock a cleric/mage.

He's refering to the "Mystic Theurge" Prestige Class.. once you meet the prerequisites, you can take the "Mystic Theurge PrC", which will add +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class for each level you take it.

ElysianEchoes

You can also make a mage/druid. There's a prestige class called Arcane Heirophant. It's similar to the Mystic Theurge, but its levels stack with druid for wild shaping as well. Slightly better HD, too. Yummy.

Kurumi

Yay.. but back to topic.. of course Wild Mages are the most powerful casters.. perhaps not the most versatile, but if you are among the people, that think that magic itself is the only "true" power then "caster level" is what you are looking at and in BG there's no other class that could get a higher caster level - not to mention beneficial surges and the ability to learn every mage spell. And if it's about versatility (without cheesy exploits) I'd say Avenger.

Alsn

I would have to agree with wild mages being the most powerful in theory. Built in improved alacrity has massive potential. However, there's just no non-exploity way to safely count on a wild mage not blowing himself up or something equally nasty. Sure, in BG2 with spell trigger or CC triple imp chaos shield you can guarantee that you never get a wild surge, but that's an exploit of the cheesiest nature.

But without abusing power word: reload, the sorcerer is by far the best spellcaster. Kensai mages or berserker mages are powerful, but for other reasons than spellcasting(being amazing at beating shit to a bloody pulp) and bards level up quickly and as such get higher dice totals when they roll for damage, but get absolutely crap spell slots and maximum spell levels.

I honestly don't consider druids or clerics to be anywhere near the arcane spellcasters in pure "power". There's a reason they were massively buffed in 3ed as they kinda suck in 2ed. Or at least compared to 2ed arcane casters they do although I guess the avenger gets an honourable mention for bg1 due to how fast they level up. The one exception I'd say is a cleric/illusionist multiclass(or cleric/mage, but I prefer the gnome version). Especially at higher levels, they get the benefit of adding cleric spells to spell triggers and contingencies, which gives them some unique advantages.

But yea, I'd say the sorcerer is the most powerful, the wild mage has the highest potential but only if you abuse the fact that we are playing a computer game and can reload at will. Cause if you truly want to abuse nahal's reckless dweomer(the only reason wild mages are even comparable to a sorcerer) you're going to be reloading, a lot.

Communard

Wild Mage, because if you get lucky you can cast spells massively above your level. I had Neera casting Cloudkill successfully at level 3. She also accidentally gated in a pit fiend against that Red Wizard from her quest, which was frankly hilarious (from a distance)

Pantalion

Hm. Yup, counting Shadowkeeper, Wildmage/Cleric is the best caster in the game by a long shot, though you may be interested in other Wildmage variants which don't feature casting, because I'm not sure if Wildsurge works with Priest spells off the top of my head, and while you're paying for your power as a mage with wild surges, you get nothing for your priest from surging.

If you're interested in the more unusual mixes, then have you considered Triple Classes?

Fighter/Wild Mage/Thief is an interesting combination, since your sole disadvantage - Spell Access, vanishes with Nahal's and natural Wildmage variance, meaning you can be the original Does Everything character, and can cast your buffs and boosts in safety before wading into battle, meaning your Wild Stoneskins and Cloud Kills can fail without disastrous consequence with the right precautions.

Fighter/Wild Mage/Cleric is another unique possibility. Normally the FMC is ignored because you're losing high level mage casting for just melee capacity, but a Wild Mage can actually pull off max level cleric spells, Nahal'd max level Mage spells and all the best buffs in the game. You can't pick locks or disarm traps, but you can Knock and Find Traps and Sanctuary and still hit harder than a Raging Rashemi with a head wound, and your HP is an average D8, not bad for a caster.