Indeed you can have Grand Mastery (*****) in BG1 ...
Aasimar069
Member Posts: 803
... but actually it requires that your character is not only a warrior.
=> He must be dual classed.
The best choice is : Fighter 6 / Thief 9
When create your character, add ** to your weapon of choice.
At level 3, and level 6, add * x 2 to your weapon.
Then dual him to thief. You will gain 2 starting *, that you won't be able to add to your warrior proficiencies.
He will gain two more * at level 4 and level 8.
The level 8 proficiency will be enough to get the ***** in your chosen weapon (since your regained your fighter levels).
If you also want the level 4 * to be added to your fighter proficiencies, you have to level up your character to level 3 thief, and stack enough XP to level straight to level 7 (where your previous capacities will be obtainable).
(check the exp required for level 7, as I can't recall it properly).
Enjoy your fighter with grand Mastery
He'll have less PV than a straight fighter, but a better TAC0 in the chosen weapon since he has Grand mastery in it.
=> He must be dual classed.
The best choice is : Fighter 6 / Thief 9
When create your character, add ** to your weapon of choice.
At level 3, and level 6, add * x 2 to your weapon.
Then dual him to thief. You will gain 2 starting *, that you won't be able to add to your warrior proficiencies.
He will gain two more * at level 4 and level 8.
The level 8 proficiency will be enough to get the ***** in your chosen weapon (since your regained your fighter levels).
If you also want the level 4 * to be added to your fighter proficiencies, you have to level up your character to level 3 thief, and stack enough XP to level straight to level 7 (where your previous capacities will be obtainable).
(check the exp required for level 7, as I can't recall it properly).
Enjoy your fighter with grand Mastery
He'll have less PV than a straight fighter, but a better TAC0 in the chosen weapon since he has Grand mastery in it.
1
Comments
Base Thac0 Fighter lvl 8 (xp-limit): 13
Dual-class:
Thief Thac0 with 9 (based on getting 15 @ 7 instead of 17): 14
Grandmastery (non-modded)
2 Specialized +1 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
3 Mastery +2 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
4 High Mastery +2 THAC0. +3 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -1 speed factor to weapon.
5 Grand Mastery +2 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.
= +1 damage / -1 Thac0
Further it's a cheesy abuse of the engine, some don't care but some do. Typical a dual-class Fighter->whatever shouldn't be able to ever raise the points in the 'deadweight' Fighter class, if it didn't reach the proper lvl 9 to spend all 5 points in 1 proficiency.
I am not saying it is realistic, but as I know it is according to AD&D 2nd edition rules. It is even the same in 3.0, if you get a feat and your fighter level is at least 4 but you level up in a different class (so, feat come from a different class) you can still put it to the weapon specialization (unless it is a special feat, like wizards magic feat).
Incorrect
Grand Mastery isn't gimped in this game
When BG2:EE will be out, it will be more interesting to dual in the second game, but for the moment, this combo is the best.
There are a lot discussions about this problem
ANd 3rd edition is completely different, as there exists no dual-classing - that are basically all multiclasses. As long as I met the requirements I can advance whatever I want.
But if I don't advance the fighter any further, I can't spec in Greater Weapon Specialization and so on. Basically the same problem, cause I'd need a real fighter lvl 9 - cause only this sole class can spent up to 5 points and only at this very lvl 9 in a profiency - and no one else.
Why should suddenly Mister tiny Rogue or Mage advance in a proficiency for a weapon, they don't even know how to wear otherwise ^^
I doubt it's a 'feature'
Whatever someone prefer ^^ I still level up to 9 and switch thereafter.
Do you mean it's currently bugged and that grand mastery does not work ?
Or do you mean that's not implemented and it cannot work as intended ?
Thanks for your answer !
The "true" Grandmastery-table:
1 Proficient Normal THAC0 while using weapon
2 Specialized +1 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
3 Mastery +3 THAC0. +3 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
4 High Mastery +3 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -1 speed factor to weapon.
5 Grand Mastery +3 THAC0. +5 damage. +3/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.
[note the extra attack for 5 pips]
In that case your fighter 6 / thief 9 would be extraordinary
2nd edition players handbook, Proficiency section, pg 73. "In one way a weapon specialist is much like a specialist wizard. Specialization requires single minded dedication and training. Thus dual and multi-class character cannot attain weapon specialization. It is available only to single class fighters or their sub-classes."
So actually, multiclass characters shouldn't even get specialization at all, much less a dual-class be able to attain GM.
Still, I believe that its better in fighter/druid to go for scimitars and a ranged weapon. Grandmastery isn't as useful as being a multiprupose killing machine.
Again, they did not change it in 3.0 and 3.5, so that is why I think it is a feature. Or it is a bug of the paper version of AD&D (and D&D as well). One other similar example: you can spend your skillpoints in 3.0/3.5 on any skill that is allowed to you by any of your class and not just your actual level-up class (and you can increase it not as a cross-skill but as a normal one).
But I think there are much more strange behaviours of the dual-class system, for example why the hell do you forget your first class features for a while and then suddenly start to remember again? Ok, I know the philosophy behind this concept (you concentrate full time on your new class) but it is still really weird.
provided he has scores of 17 or better in the prime requisites of the new class. After
switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous
character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. Nor can he switch
back to his first class at a later date, hoping to resume his advancement where he left off.
Once he leaves a class he has finished his studies in it. Instead, he starts over in a new
class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous Hit Dice and
hit points. He gains the abilities, and must abide by all of the restrictions, of the new
class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores (for example, an 18
Strength wizard who changes to fighter does not gain the percentile Strength bonus, but
likewise a fighter changing to a wizard would not lose it). The character uses the combat
and saving throw tables appropriate to his new class and level.
This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still
has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if
he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience
for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be
carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and
hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers,
weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that
are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do
things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new
character class.)"
Further ^^
"Weapon specialization is an optional rule that enables a fighter (only) to choose a
single weapon and specialize in its use. Any weapon may be chosen. Specialization is
normally announced (and paid for with weapon proficiency slots) when the character is
created. But even after a player character earns experience, he can still choose to
specialize in a weapon, provided he has the weapon proficiency slots available."
SPAAAAM
But as you don't advance in the fighter class anymore :P ....
I know 3.0/3.5 is a better (easier) concept specially for games to manage as you not that restricted like the dual-class in this example. Then again, dual-class with/without the proficiency (abuse) are usually pretty powerful in BG2. I currently tinker a Berserker to 9 (slightly xp-cap modified, just cause to not abuse it and I don't miss any XP anyway) and dual him to cleric in BG2; I can get in theory 24 Wisdom (!) which gives me a lot of bonus spells and I have the fighting potential of my 'old' fighter class, which is by accident focused in Flail of Ages :>
edit: Just read that too. Still a bit inconvenient as now BG1 & BG2(+tutu) & BGEE uses each a different prof tables. Though now it's only half an attack difference, which is 'okay' I assume. I'd rather have the limitation to not spent points in a class, which the player obviously don't have access to anymore.
You'll get :
Fighter level 8
+1 THACO / +1 damage
-2 AC
Thief shenanigans (Detect illusions or other)
2 pips in two handed specialization.
2 pips in another weapon (IE : Short Bows)
5 pips in whatever 1H weapon you like.
You'll lose on STR 18/XX, but that's what the tome is for.
With the +3 two handed sword, you'll have something like :
Base 13
- 1 (Swash)
- 3 (5 pips 2H specialization)
- 1 (2 pips 2H fighting style)
- 3 (+2 weapon)
- 1 (Strength 18) or -3 (Strength 19)
That's a base thaco of 2 / 4.
Pretty much assured to hit.
Also note that the 5 pips attack bonus, in BG;EE "just" grants +1/2 attack, not a full attack.
A level 8 fighter, with 5 pips in 2H sword has 5/2 attacks, not 3 attacks.
I think @ZanathKariashi is mostly right.
Has anyone reported this as a bug?
- It's a bug. It should be fixed. Those of us who know it's a bug shouldn't have to wilfully choose not to add the point in order to avoid exploiting the bug.
Versus.
- I like it. It shouldn't be fixed. It's not hard for you to choose not to add the point if you don't like it.
The main problem will be that you won't have as much thief points to add... and the fact you say good bye to backstab
Swashy 5 / fighter 8 :
AC 4 (18 dex) ; Thac0 : 6 (with standard weapon + 19 strength) ; 82 hit points.
+ 25 x 5 to use in thief skills
fighter 6 / thief 9 :
AC6 (18 dex) ; Thac0 : 9 (with standard weapon + 19 strength) ; 104 hit points
Ability to use backstab
Possibility to max 3 thief proficiency
Swashy 5 / fighter 8 is better in term of damage / to hit, but you can say goodbye to backstab.
I guess there is a choice to make everywhere...
You get -2 AC, +0,5 APR, +3 Thaco, +1 damage.
vs
x4 backstab, +75 skill points, 22 Max Hp
Yes, I did not list all the advantages... hard choice, still (it depends if you prefer a large hp pool or better attack possibilities).