Class first then Race!

HexHammer

I find it VERY annoying that one has to memorize exoribant amount of nonimportaint bureaucracy rules.

Sure by a strict logic it would be logically to choose race first then what this person can become, but in pure gameplay terms it's nonsens as it's overly complex and annoying!

I want to be able to choose my class, then see which race can play that class! That would make it WAY easier for first time players.

..besides, elfs can become rangers, but not multiclass rangers?!?!?!? ..AAAARRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

ajwz

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

HexHammer

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Silverstar

With the creation process being the way it currently is though it doesn't tell you -why- a class is greyed out so if you just reversed the order, you'd have people wondering why certain races were greyed out. Then they would want to pick their race first again since they didn't want to memorize who could be what and we come full circle.

The character creation UI would need to be changed quite a lot to make it more informative and that isn't too likely to happen considering how much of a pain the game's UI has been to mess with apparently. So you're probably stuck using the back button.

HexHammer

If not for BG II, then for whatever new RPG may come.

kilroy_was_here

@HexHammer Any new RPG wouldn't use the ADnD ruleset that BG does. 3e, 3.5e and 4e don't have any race/(base) class restrictions so it wouldn't be necessary.

Dee

Character creation follows a flow of specification.

You start with a blank slate. Then you choose a gender. Then you choose a race. Then you choose what kind of member of that race and gender your character is.

That said, a future game would probably have race and class chosen at the same time, so that you can select the one to see your options in the other (and vice versa). It would also probably show the paperdoll, for those who base their character builds on appearance.

HexHammer

Aosaw said:

That said, a future game would probably have race and class chosen at the same time, so that you can select the one to see your options in the other (and vice versa). It would also probably show the paperdoll, for those who base their character builds on appearance.

That sounds good!

ZanathKariashi

Lets do it PnP Style...Stats first, alignment, then race, then class.

bob_veng

HexHammer said:

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Dear first time players,
go read a manual.

yours truly
bob_veng

HexHammer

Y

bob_veng said:

HexHammer said:

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Dear first time players,
go read a manual.

yours truly
bob_veng

Manual overly big and complex! Games should be intuitive, that's why Blizzard has such major success, because their games are easy to learn!

TJ_Hooker

HexHammer said:

Y

bob_veng said:

HexHammer said:

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Dear first time players,
go read a manual.

yours truly
bob_veng

Manual overly big and complex! Games should be intuitive, that's why Blizzard has such major success, because their games are easy to learn!

Uh-oh. Overall I don't think Blizzard is held in particularly high regard on these forums...

HexHammer

TJ_Hooker said:

HexHammer said:

Y

bob_veng said:

HexHammer said:

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Dear first time players,
go read a manual.

yours truly
bob_veng

Manual overly big and complex! Games should be intuitive, that's why Blizzard has such major success, because their games are easy to learn!

Uh-oh. Overall I don't think Blizzard is held in particularly high regard on these forums...

Don't reject wisdom of the outcast!

LaughingMan

Or, you know... just list the available classes at the bottom of each racial description.

Not hard to mod that in either, in fact.

elminster

HexHammer said:

Y

bob_veng said:

HexHammer said:

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Dear first time players,
go read a manual.

yours truly
bob_veng

Manual overly big and complex! Games should be intuitive, that's why Blizzard has such major success, because their games are easy to learn!

In this case even I admit that the manual argument doesn't hold up because it doesn't actually state under Paladin that you can only be human. However, in large part this game requires you to commit to understanding rules that can be complex at least compared to the Diablo games, so I don't support your "games should be intuitive statement", at least not necessarily. The manual is complex yes, but its also been broken into two now, which along with the fact that you can click something in the Table of Contents and be brought to the page in question at least makes it a little easier for people to find what they are looking for.

HexHammer

..I'm sorry that you see it that way old man.. (sorry couldn't help it ^^)

Moomintroll

I could be wrong here, but in WoW you pick you race then class.
(It's also more complicated than baldur's gate!)

HexHammer

In WoW, there aren't many many classescontrary DnD.

Dee

Don't tell anybody I know this, but:

World of Warcraft classes:
Warrior
Shaman
Priest
Warlock
Mage
Rogue
Monk
Druid
Paladin
Hunter
Death Knight
Total: 11

VERSUS

Baldur's Gate classes:
Fighter
Paladin
Cleric
Mage
Sorcerer
Barbarian
Ranger
Druid
Sorcerer
Thief
Bard
Monk
Total: 12

The difference isn't as great as you might think.

HexHammer

Ah ah ah! You forget the multiclasses!

kilroy_was_here

But multiclass is for non-humans only, so race MUST be first.

Dee

And if you're counting multiclasses, you also have to count the ability trees for each of the WoW classes.

WoW also has more races than Baldur's Gate. I don't think you're going to win that argument.

HexHammer

Aosaw said:

And if you're counting multiclasses, you also have to count the ability trees for each of the WoW classes.

WoW also has more races than Baldur's Gate. I don't think you're going to win that argument.

No, sub class comes with the initial class, where in DnD Multi Class are seperated entirely from sole classes. However I would compare kits with ability trees.

Riolathel

HexHammer said:

Y

bob_veng said:

HexHammer said:

ajwz said:

Class is often dependent on race (Paladins must be human, humans cant multiclass, etc) so I don't see this happening.

No, you are wrong, how should any first time player know such thing?

By logic one may know that many paladins specially served the priest hood, then it would be reasonable to assume that elfs and half elfs could be paladins, but isn't so.
Therefore it's a tideous search for the right race for the class.

Dear first time players,
go read a manual.

yours truly
bob_veng

Manual overly big and complex! Games should be intuitive, that's why Blizzard has such major success, because their games are easy to learn!

Blizzard's games are also dumbed down versions of really great games.. If you want to turn your brain off and play a game then sure go play some WoW or CoD. I'll stick to my DnD based games ty

HexHammer

@Riolathel it seems that you are discussing taste here, the complexity has been very complex with varous specs, so overly complex that they infact domped it down. It also has complexity in runes and jewls, so it seems that you are overly biased.

Riolathel

WoW has no complexity and they even removed the little complexity of the talent trees to appeal to casuals..

I've played Vanilla wow which actually had some complex systems. Panda WoW is laughable when compared to a game like BG.

jewels just add some extra stats to your equipment.. where have i seen that before...? Oh yeah diablo, and diablo did it much better. Runes being complex? LOL


WoW is everquest and a few other MMOs combined with increased appeal to casual gamers and grinders.

Unfortunately i did play through WoW during cataclysm. ( i drew the line at kungfu pandas). I got a level 85 Mage in 2-3 weeks. WoW consists of nothing but waiting in queues and farming herbs, ore, cloth, etc for gold to buy more jewels, potions, glyphs, etc. But when you hit cap and you realize the whole point of WoW is to raid your ass off the appeal immediately dies. I am not the kind of gamer that likes to raid for gear for the sake of raiding for more gear. The bosses are so mind numbingly easy. I did PvP for a while and that was about the only time i ever had fun. Everything before that was just torture to get the gear necessary to do it.

My point is.

WoW is a terrible example of how a game should be. WoW is about getting people addicted or forcing them to do long periods of grind so they can hit you for the next months subscription. It is not a game based around fun. If it was there wouldn't be daily limits or a leveling curve that forces you to do weeks to months of dungeon raiding to actually start playing the game.

BG is complex and that is why i enjoy it. Same as DnD. It isn't all about getting loot or leveling. It's about experiencing a fun and intellectual adventure. Honestly BG doesn't take long to get into either.. it would take someone 30 minutes to read through the basic manual and be ready to go. The best part of gaming is coming in a noob and learning how stuff works. 2nd edition is complex if you come in knowing nothing about it but honestly it isn't hard to get the hang of. Play a few games and you understand; learning from mistakes is easy thanks to quicksave. Figuring out which races can play which classes takes a few minutes, and if you're still having issues remembering there are websites one google search away that can list it for you.

TL;DR

WoW is dumbed down so that casual gamers can easily get started. BG is for DnD fans who love a good story.

HexHammer

Please tell me about this allerged complexity that BG should have.

geselle

Never change a working system, no really it doesn't matter. If you pick your class first some races are grayed out, basically changing nothing. And if you don't mind reading the manual, don't complain.

elminster

Not including class limitations for races is an oversight in the manual.

Riolathel

The manual isn't 100% accurate i've noticed but it's a great way to get an idea before you jump in. The best way to learn to play a DnD based game is to just play. Including PnP

HexHammer

Riolathel said:

The manual isn't 100% accurate i've noticed but it's a great way to get an idea before you jump in. The best way to learn to play a DnD based game is to just play. Including PnP

Surely you are jesting? You want computer gamers to buy PnP stuff just to play computer game? ..LOL?