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Animate dead summons Ghasts / Uses wrong animation upon summoning

AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
edited December 2012 in BG:EE Bugs (v1.2)
While the change is fun, this imbalances the spell greatly at low/mid levels.
At level 5, any cleric can summon 1-2 ghast. These RAPE anything they touch, unless their target focuses on them, or the target has low AC and/or Saves.

I'd suggest to change the spell to something like this :
Caster Level Effect
1-6 Summon 1-2 skelettons
7 Summon 1-2 ghouls
11 Summon 1-2 ghasts
15+ Summon 1 skeletton warrior

(Yes, that means it's impossible to summon ghasts in BG:EE, but ghouls are already pretty powerful as it is...)

Regarding the animation of the spell, in BG2, the animation was great (Skeletton coming out of the earth), why was this changed to the current ... kinda "meh" animation ?

Expected Behaviour : Animate Dead isn't as imbalanced as current implementation, and uses the BG2 animation upon casting.

Edit.: Should probably have posted this in an existing thread... there's like 2-3 of them lying around.

Sorry ! :D
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Comments

  • Sese79Sese79 Member Posts: 478
    In the PnP AD&D game you can only animate skeletons or zombies. Didn't know that you can animate undead that have no body / remains.
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    edited December 2012
    Well, Ghouls & Ghast do have remains, these are not ghosts or vampiric mists ^^
    If the spell should only animate skelettons and/or zombies, then how about
    level 1-6 : 2-3 Regular Skelettons / Zombies
    Level 7-14 : 1-2 Greater Skeletton / Zombie
    Level 15+ : 1 Skeletton Warrior
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    I think it may be a design choice, and not a bug. Skeleton horde was a common tactic in BG1, so BG2 responded by putting a summons cap in place. Considering it used to summon 6ish skeletons, they likely concluded 1 Ghast (with a chance for another) rebalanced the spell appropriately against the summons cap.

    It does strike me as too powerful, but these guys have way more experience than I do. I'd be surprised if it were a bug and not intentional.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited December 2012
    I hate this, it was like this in my latest BGT game too, for some reason, I never had ghasts summoned before. You can have multiple ghasts with this spell and they are exceedingly deadly. According to PnP Complete Necromancer's Book, ghasts are so wicked, chaotic and hard to control that even highest level necromancers have difficulty with controlling them.

    In the current game, you can have 5 ghasts very easily, haste them with a mage and send them in to fight any humanoid enemy:total slaughter! Only certain enemies can stand against them, like golems, any demon-fiend type enemy (I can name at least two in the game)..and yeah, that big guy in that cool-spiked armor and all.. They kill and feast upon any other enemy.

    I edited the spell's effect file with DLTCEP and changed ghast creature with your basic skeleton. It has 8 HP, AC 7, 1 attack at THAC0 19 for 1d6 damage, its only saving grace its missile/piercing resistance.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    This may or may not be nerfed, pending designer's decision.
  • WooWoo Member Posts: 135
    It is kind of imbalanced.
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    edited December 2012
    Avenger_teambg said:

    This may or may not be nerfed, pending designer's decision.

    @Avenger_teambg, one thing that would be great to suggest to the, is to have a bit of scaling in the spell inbetween the "sucky" skelettons at level 5 and the "OP" Skelettons at level 15.
    The spell used to be great in BG1 due to the fact that you could summon a lot of skelettons.

    In BG2, the spell is useless before level 15.

    Some "Greater" skeletton at level 8 would be very, very nice.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited December 2012
    Or how about it just summons skeleton warriors at all levels, with abilities and stats that scale upwards till you hit the 15+ skeleton warrior. The function and use would remain constant through out the game (meat shield with some magic resistance), but would grow as your level did.

    (Static resistances: 40% slashing, 50% piercing, 60% missile, 100% cold)
    1-6 : lvl 3 skeleton warrior with 16 str, 25% MR, wielding a plain longsword. (20 hp)(6 ac) (1 attack) (18 thac0)

    7-10: lvl 5 skeleton warrior with 17 str, 45% MR, wielding a +1 Longsword. (40 hp)(4 ac) (1 1/2 attack)(15 thac0)

    11-14: level 7 skeleton warrior with 18 str, 65% MR, wielding a +1 Bastard sword. (60 hp)(3 ac) (1 1/2 attack) (13 thac0)

    15+: Level 9 skeleton warrior with 18/51 str, 90% MR, wielding a +1 greatsword. (80 hp)(2 ac) (2 attacks) (10 thac0)
  • KenKen Member Posts: 226
    But why did they choose a Ghast? If they where Ghouls it "might" have been more fair.

    A poor decision by the dev team. I cannot understand how they could let these kinda things slip through them.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    Pretty sure this was caused by a naming error/weirdness. The skeleton that's supposed to be summoned here was named ghastsu for some reason when we got it so it was changed when a spell that looked like it was supposed to summon ghasts was summoning skeletons *facepalm*

    I like @ZanathKariashi's setup, I'll try to get that working.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    Ok, should be good. Let me know if the values above are still unbalanced for having multiple summons and I can tweak at your discretion.
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    edited December 2012
    @SethDavis :

    Few remarks :
    - The +1 Longsword drops to the ground when skelettons are killed. I guess that problem is also occurring for other level summons weapons, from what I saw in Near Infinity
    - I'd also suggest to use different animations for skelettons previous to level 15. Like, the other animation that's used for skelettons in BG2 (The animation without a helm : IC_SKELETON0 - 60160), this way, the level 15 skeletton has that "special" feel of beeing different :D
    - I'd also suggest to update the spell description with the following information :

    Regular description, slightly modified with the following paragraph
    1st - 5th : 3 HD Skeletton wielding a long sword
    6th - 10th : 5 HD Skeletton wielding a +1 long sword
    11th - 14th : 7 HD Skeletton wielding a +1 bastard sword
    15th + : 9 HD Skeletton wielding a +1 great sword

    See the spell "Spider Spawn" for a good example on how to display the information :)

    If anyone with an english version of the game (I've got a french one) wants to use Near Infinity to recover the original description, update it and provide it to Seth so he doesn't need to write it himself, that would be VERY NICE :D

    Thanks again for the update, Seth, that was great and a welcome change ! :)
  • WhysperWhysper Member Posts: 3
    edited December 2012
    Just played with the new update (1.0.2011) and level 6 Branwen just summoned 2 skeleton warriors!

    Current behaviour: A level 6 cleric can summon skeleton warriors using the animate dead spell

    Expected behaviour: A cleric must be level 15 to summon a single skeleton warrior using the animate dead spell
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    1. Flag their gear to be undroppable.

    2. Remove the chance to summon 2. They're pretty tough, and getting 2 for 1 spell, even on a small chance is a bit much. That's why the 15+ only summons 1.

    Other then that, working great. They're tough enough that you don't feel like your waste a slot on them, and deal ok damage, but don't have any OP abilities like that ghast did.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Flagging @SethDavis for this.
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    Avenger_teambg said:

    Flagging SethDavis for this.

    Just did in my previous message :D
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    The spell has been changed. There are several levels of skeleton warriors now, depending on the caster level of the priest
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    @Tanthalas
    merge with this http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12493/animate-dead-spell-unexpected-behaviour
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited December 2012
    Merged
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    Alrighty,

    items now undropable/unstealable,
    summons restricted to one per casting,
    animations changed:
    lvl 1-6 is skeleton animation
    lvl 7-10 is skeleton warrior without helmet
    lvl11-14 is skeleton warrior with helmet
    lvl 15 is (a freaking) necromorph (!!!!!! - because there was no way i could resist once i saw it)

    ping me again if something's off
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    edited December 2012
    .
    Post edited by Aranthys on
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    edited December 2012
    @SethDavis :
    I guess the "necromorph" you're talking about is the bone golem animation ?(see http://i.imgur.com/pxd9I.png)

    I just hope people won't be too disatisfied with that change ^^

    Otherwise, great news !
  • ParysParys Member Posts: 205
    maybe my suggestion will be helpeful:
    items now undropable/unstealable,
    summons restricted to one per casting,
    animations changed:
    lvl 1-6 is skeleton animation
    lvl 7-10 is skeleton animation with helmet (just like: Icharyd - ICHARY.CRE)
    lvl11-14 is skeleton warrior without helmet
    lvl 15 is skeleton warrior with helmet
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited December 2012
    It's pretty nice. Few minor tweaks to smooth things out. Yeah the scaled appearances sound good.

    7+ 1 1/2 attack instead of 1.

    11+ 1 1/2 attack instead of 2. 18 str instead of 18/51 (optionally immunity to normal weapons. The 15+ has that, but it might be a bit OP for early SoA)

    the bone golem seems a bit much...I mean it's pretty badass looking, but that's more of a Create Undead territory then animate dead.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    K,
    apr has been changed,
    strength bonuses have been dropped,
    and animations have been shuffled up such that the (freaking) necromorph (!!!!!!) is no more. Though apparently the only difference between the animations of skeleton with helm and skeleton without helm is that skeleton with helm is actually wearing a helm. The id# is the same.

    I'm thinking of changing Imoen's animation to be the bone golem... just for my game of course....
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @Jalily - would it be possible to modify the animate dead spell descriptions to reflect the new effect?
    The basic level info mentioned above:

    1st - 5th : 3 HD Skeletton wielding a long sword
    6th - 10th : 5 HD Skeletton wielding a +1 long sword
    11th - 14th : 7 HD Skeletton wielding a +1 bastard sword
    15th + : 9 HD Skeletton wielding a +1 great sword

    also need to mention that each casting will only summon one skeleton.

    the strings are 26490 and 26162.
  • JalilyJalily Member Posts: 4,681
    edited January 2013
    @SethDevis

    1. The 3 HD warriors are summoned from levels 1-6, and the 5 HD warriors are summoned from levels 7-10, not 1-5 and 6-10. Is that right? (I'm guessing yes because of the .CRE names.)

    2. The spell lists a casting time of 1 round, but the actual casting time is 9. Which should it be?

    3. In a similar vein, the spell's description lists the range as 10 yds, but the actual range is 20 ft. This is seriously minor, but while we're at it... :)
    Post edited by Jalily on
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @Jalily - Sorry about that, that's what I get for puling data from too far up in the thread >.<

    1. Yup, that should work

    2. I think the 9 rounds is better

    3. I'll change the range to 10 yards, no need to be able to summon these guys on the other side of the fight
  • JalilyJalily Member Posts: 4,681
    @SethDavis

    Sorry, 9 as in 9/10ths of a round, not 9 rounds! O_O

    10 yds. = 30 ft. compared to the actual range of 20 ft. Just want to make sure you didn't misread that.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    edited February 2013
    @Jalily - ugh, mixing yards and feet... I'm on the metric system! I shouldn't have to deal with that lol

    just to be safe, would you please suggest the settings that would match the description?
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