The item nerf and buff thread
caruga
Member Posts: 375
I'll make a separate thread for some other issues the game has (spells, HLA's, bhaalspawn abilities), unless someone else makes one first. Feel free to name your own items; these are the ones I think are a point of concern:
Suggested fix(es) (note: these should be read as 'just throwing ideas out there' for the people who would stand in judgement of these issues, unless stated otherwise these are not the ideas I've steadfastly concluded are the correct way for things to be--a lot of the time I'm willing to bet that there is developer intent that I overlooked):
1. Make it an amulet instead of a ring. It is less of a sacrifice to have an enchanted ring over any other jewelry due to the second ring slot.
2. Make it a +bonus rather than an =bonus, perhaps no better than what the 'friends' spell would give.
3. Make it an activated bonus rather than a continuous one, like, say, the girdle of fortitude.
4. Perhaps even change how charisma works. Have it slightly less effective at any given level for shop prices but have it continue to improve all the way to 25.
1. Ring of human influence.
It's not overpowered, but it does make charisma a done deal right at the start of the second campaign. It literally does not matter what base charisma score your pc has. Why even have the whole 'sub-game' of manipulating charisma or having it as a desirable trait, if it can be made redundant so quickly?Suggested fix(es) (note: these should be read as 'just throwing ideas out there' for the people who would stand in judgement of these issues, unless stated otherwise these are not the ideas I've steadfastly concluded are the correct way for things to be--a lot of the time I'm willing to bet that there is developer intent that I overlooked):
1. Make it an amulet instead of a ring. It is less of a sacrifice to have an enchanted ring over any other jewelry due to the second ring slot.
2. Make it a +bonus rather than an =bonus, perhaps no better than what the 'friends' spell would give.
3. Make it an activated bonus rather than a continuous one, like, say, the girdle of fortitude.
4. Perhaps even change how charisma works. Have it slightly less effective at any given level for shop prices but have it continue to improve all the way to 25.
Post edited by caruga on
3
Comments
2. Carsomyr.
A rather simple reduction that just keeps it in line, but still allows it to remain in the top 3 best weapons for both the final two campaigns. That being: make the dispel magic effect of sword-contact only work once per round. No more easy tearing through defenses with whirlwind.For charisma I think it's safe to have +bonuses, but I think +str bonuses have to be kept severely in check because a warrior-class protaganist could end up overpowered, and the protaganist never has a reason to roll less than optimal physical stats.
Strength is a difficult one because it keeps getting better all the way up to 25. The 'holy might' bhalspaawn spell that a good/neutral protaganist can get is extremely good for a warrior class--if you're going for power you're handicapping yourself to make an evil character (and this also treads into the idea of making the alignment you pick for your character more consequential--you can roleplay an evil character anyway). +str bonus item would be like another holy might spell on top of that.
@jaysl659
I wasn't aware of item revisions mod. It's not something I'd want to use.
I think the ring must be cursed, so ppl can't chose to use it only when convenient (well, they can, but will be more troube than solution sometimes).
We must remember that charisma can be raised pretty easy with a level 1 spell. Saerileth mod made a very nice use of the game interface when one of the charisma checks of the mod was followed for a plot act that debuff the main char of any charisma spell or item modifier (i hate this mod but in this point i have to agree, they did a good job).
About Carsomyr... don't you dare to change it!!! Kidding
As an overhaul (not the company, the review meaning XD), i don't believe in overpowered items, just in weak challengers, just put stronger and smarter enemies in the game and problem solved.
It must be said. Currently, this item decreases casting time by 4 (which is rather silly and OP), and it can be gotten around mid-SoA if you enabled the Bonus Merchants (Deirde & Joluv), and for a item that is still OP in ToB.
My suggestion? Decrease the casting speed bonus by 2, and move the item somewhere in ToB. Item Revisions moves it into Watchers Keep, which is around late-SoA to early ToB.
4. Celestial Fury
The main reason this is OP is how early you can get it. Just make it so that it's harder to get it early on, by tweaking the fights for it. Or just bring in Kurosan [sic] from Weimer's Tactics mod if you are weilding this weapon.
5. Any item that sets attributes to a set value.
Just give bonuses, it will be fine.
6. Cloak of Mirroring
Oh, god, the Cloak of Mirroring. Change it. Really. Reflecting spells is OP as ****. One suggestion would be to make enemy attacks miss the wearer 50%, but that still makes it the most powerful cloak in the game, just not as much. Try also to make the battles to get it more difficult.
7. Staff of the Magi
Either remove the invisibility power, make the Twisted Rune people more competent, or both.
3. Robe of Venca
while i agree that robe of vecna is acessible too early it is realistic with the item background. It's the robe vecna used when he archieved godhood, so i see no problem in his status, however it probally shoud not be an sellable item.
My suggestion is: Put it in one of the ubber enemies mages of the game, kangax, Vithal (the fellow of underdark elemental portals), in the lich of the twisted runes (and improve them). So, if you want the item, you gonna have to feel the item before.
As a final or difficult item it's not a so ubber thing, look to some examples from planescape:
Ring zero: +3 bonus AC, +3 int, +1 spell in the 1°, 2°, 3°, 4°, 5°, 6°, 7°, 8°, 9° arcane circle spells.
Aegis of Torment: +3 bonus AC, +3 con, +15 life.
4. Celestial Fury
Celestial fury is a +3 weapon, and as such it's not able to hit many things in ToB, i believe it's not a small challenge the one we face for it, neither a hard one, it's just fair. That thief with infinite invisible pots backstabing at each second, 2 good fighters with a decent thac0 hitting you, and the own celestial fury IS used against the party.
The problem is not the challenge but the AI configuration used, make the enemies there retreat when diyng, make the priest use heal in anyone that get near death, make the priest use sanctuary in himself when badly injuried, the mage shoud make use of simulacrum and non detection spell.
5. Any item that sets attributes to a set value.
I just don't agree with this one, replace the momento of the find, or requeriments it's fine, but i don't see a reason to change the nature of those items neither a reason was given here.
6. Cloak of Mirroring
Well, i don't use it anyway i think the permanent skin of the cloak pretty anoying, screwing the character skin.
7. Staff of the Magi
Yes, the perma inv is pretty lame, as you can click the weapn at each trigger of a true sight and even if someone use a true sight you still keep the invisible. But to me the most powerful thing in this weapon is his dispel on hit ability. I prefer that on change comes to happen in this item, but the mage that carry him shoud use the lame skills of the staff on the party (set a script as if someone clicked on her with a target spell or attack button AND if she's not casting anything atm, she shoud just click on the staff and become invisible).
3. Robe of Venca
Well, it's still really powerful even in ToB. Item Revisions also changes the name and gives it a new expansive lore (borrowed from NWN). It's on one of the WK litches. Just thought you might wanna know.
4. Celestial Fury
Yea, BG2's vanilla AI sucked. All it needs is AI improvement and that's it.
5. Set ability score items
To elaborate, this includes the Ring of Human Influence. It wouldn't make sense for the ugliest person in the world to wear it and suddenly be as charismatic as Obama, or to have people who can't lift **** suddenly gain the strength of an ogre. These items also become less useful for the people who have high ability scores in the first place.
Long story short, that's why I don't like these types of items.
6. Cloak of Mirroring
Yes, the effect is rather annoying to look at for a while, but SCS(II) allows you to turn it off, and BG2 Tweaks allows you to remove it all together. However, the BG2 Tweaks version removes other uses of the animation...
7. Staff of the Magi.
Yes, the dispel on hit ability should be removed, even if the invisibility one does not. Also, as I said before, the Twisted Rune should be more competent (maybe use the Improved Twisted Rune from Tactics?)
Also, all item tweaks should be optional.
I don't see why magical items improving a character through magic doesn't make sense.
The problem is not that magic improvements don't make sense, but the fact that their improvement varies from ludicrous to not at all. These items should not be used for ludicrous improvements. They should just be used to improve on a good score.
Before anyone misunderstands, I'm not talking about items like Rod of Ressurection, which really should have limited charges, and which items are only useable through these one or limited charge abilities. I'm talking about those items, mainly staves, which are useable as weapons, but have a fixed amount of limited charge abilities (e.g: Staff of Power, Staff of Fire, Staff of Earth, Staff of Curing). Most of these abilities are not even so powerful to make them so limited, while other items have waaay more powerful abilities, which have one or more charges per day (the infamous Staff of the Magi for example, with its 3/day Lightning+Fireball and 1/day Trap Spell)
It would be really good if the forementioned abilities would recharge somehow or would have (a lot) more charges. If I remember well, Staff of Curing had 10 charges of Cure Light Wounds in it. It's not a big spell, not even so viable in combat in those levels, but it could help u a lot to shorten your rest time. It would be great to give it let's say, a 3/day charge.
About the items mentioned before me:
Set stat items:
While I do agree on most part, the Ring of Human Influence is not really a big problem for me, as Charisma itself (as we have discussed it in a previous thread) is a quite unimportant stat. It only makes sense to put it on your bhaalspawn and you find more powerful rings soon enough. It is a bit of a proble yes if you put it on before every conversation... The other item, also from BG2 that is good as it is with the set ability score is the Crom Faeyr (FTW!).
Celestial Fury:
I don't think that one is so OP, as it is only a +3 weapon. But talking about it does remind me that I really missed having a +5 katana in ToB! (Or katanas at all in BG...) I know it is said that magical katanas are rare and hard to find and they have a 1d10 base dmg roll to begin with, but still, I've found it that one is better off with using long swords instead. Hindo's Doom +4 is way weaker tham other 1-hand weapons in late game ToB. Could we get some buff on katanas, please?
Robe of Vecna:
OP. And it was also a problem for me, that I usually had 2 mages in my party (Imoen+Aerie, Edwin+Myself, Myself+Imoen+Edwin/Aerie...), but I could only equip one of them well enough (Vecna+Staff of the Magi+Ring of Wizardry (you could get 2 of these, if your protagonist was mage/sorcerer, through the Planar Sphere). So it would be really sweet if there would be some more mage items in game, probably approx same strenght but with different boosts, so you could customize your mages, not just put that compulsory robe/aulet/staff on them...
I disagree. Why are their improvements ludicrous? Because one character can get a big boost, another only a marginal boost while another character can actually see his STR decrease? The gauntlets of ogre power, aren't gauntlets of +X STR, their Gauntlets of Ogre Power and set your strength to that of an Ogre (similar to the potions of hill/frost/fire/storm giant strength). Sure, the gauntlets of dexterity also set your dexterity to a specific stat, but I don't see why its so wrong that some characters can get more benefit from an item than others.
@jaysl659
I'm not so sure about +X items encouraging the creation of well balanced characters. Classes that rely on multiple ability scores are quite rare in this game, so people will always be able to drop their INT to 3 so that their Paladin can get 18 in STR, DEX, CON and even CHA. If anything, what the set to X items do is allow you to bring lack-luster NPCs up to the main character's standards.
NOTE: Edited that "set to X" part in. Made a mistake earlier.
Also, the lack of effect of mid-range stats is one of the few problems I have with the actual ruleset. It strongly encourages min/maxing in games, and also just doesn't really make sense. The dead zone of these stats frustrates me to no end and is one area where I would probably be amenable to a change in the rules, allowing a consistent increase in effects of stats from severe penalties at the lowest to intense bonuses at the highest, with no area in between lacking in any effect. I believe that The Bigg Tweak Pack has a component along the lines of "3rd Edition Style STR, CON, etc." which I tried once. It was really nice to not have a confusing and inexplicably useless range of stats.
I agree that some stats have large ranges where they do nothing (or pratically nothing I guess).
Its something that I think 3E (as implemented in IWD2) handled better.