You have not yet provided an example of a penalty for dual wielding with 2 large weapons with 0 or 1 pips. This penalty is because the game cannot restrict off-hand weapon size which is required in the PnP changes that you want.
As it stands now you want to implement a change to make your characters more powerful without the accompanying restrictions.
Double the non-proficiency penalty, -6/-8 for warriors, -10/-12 for mages, -7/-9 for everyone else.
Well...I'm not 100% sure what the engine can and can't do...I know that you can implement alternate thac0 based on weapon type, but I don't know if you can make it go away based on proficiency.
Anyone familar with modding the engine wanna chime in?
Is it possible to set it up to:
A: IF the off-hand weapon isn't a dagger, shield or short sword, apply a lets say -4/-4 thac0 penalty to both hands
B: When Two-weapon hits **, it no longer applies the penalty.
I was thinking maybe you could increase the thac0 bonus on ** to compensate, but that would give a bonus to thac0 when using allowed light weapons.
As above, I know basically nothing about in depth modding, so someone more knowledgeable would be nice.
There's a mod that does this already, actually. It applies a -2 penalty to your off-hand attacks if you're wielding a katana, bastard sword, or any other "heavy" one-handed weapon. "Middle-weight" one-handed weapons, such as long swords and scimitars, apply a -1 penalty; and "light" one-handed weapons (such as daggers and short swords and, I think, that's about it) apply no penalty to off-hand attacks.
In addition, the bonus/penalty stacks between the two weapons. So if you're wielding two katanas, your off-hand penalty will be -4; if you're wielding two daggers, it will be +0; if you're wielding a dagger and a long sword, it will be -1; and if you're wielding a Katana and a Scimitar, it will be -3.
That's in addition to the existing TWS penalties; so with three pips, wielding two katanas, your total penalty will be -7.
I'd recommend using that mod, with another mod that changes the TWS penalty table to be what you want it to be.
Yeah..but it doesn't negate the penalty at 2 pips. ** removes the penalty on dual-wielding unbalanced weapons. That's where the main issue lies.
At *, your dual-wield is -2/-4 with a light off-hand. **, it's 0/-2 and doesn't matter what weapons you wield. ***, if they used it would be 0/0, with any weapons (and rangers would get for free)
Can a mod do that? Apply a penalty based on the weapon type, but then remove it once the two-weapon proficency hits the correct level.
Though...I had a thought...are proficiencies cumulative or do they replace the lower version?
Two weapon style is already the most powerful style, and it's fine that three slots are required. Some sacrifice should be expected so as to avoid unbalancing this already overused fighting style.
As I frequent user of Two Weapon fighting I assure you that it's fine as it is.
Uhm no taking engine exploits like giving the extra attack of the off hand weapon to a main hand weapon aside its a style that only helps non fighter characters to get somewhat close to them in pure melee at the expence of higher critical rates and AC.
I don't think a mod could do that. To be honest, that seems excessive.
Once again you're talking about a potential +6 bonus (via removed penalty) to your attack rolls from a single proficiency slot.
The situational bonuses/penalties allow you to have a better THAC0 with light weapons at the expense of damage; if you allow the player to bypass that restriction, once again you've created a problem with Two Weapon Style being stupidly (that is, stupidly as an intensifier, not a descriptor of intelligence) more powerful than either of the other two available options.
I don't think a mod could do that. To be honest, that seems excessive.
Once again you're talking about a potential +6 bonus (via removed penalty) to your attack rolls from a single proficiency slot.
The situational bonuses/penalties allow you to have a better THAC0 with light weapons at the expense of damage; if you allow the player to bypass that restriction, once again you've created a problem with Two Weapon Style being stupidly (that is, stupidly as an intensifier, not a descriptor of intelligence) more powerful than either of the other two available options.
Two Weapon fighting is already really powerful.
You also would have to introduce different str damage bonuses to different weapon types like 3ed does because right now the difference between the base damage of weapons is pretty much neglectable on the overall damage output because there are strong magical weapons of every type.
Two Weapon is currently powerful, because the penalties aren't being applied. Bigdog's argument aside,
My proposed changes wouldn't affect warrior types at all, most don't spend 3 points any way, and they already reap full benefits from using any two 1hd handed weapons they want...
this change would merely bring rogues up to their proper level of dual-wielding. A rogue isn't going to pass up getting ** anyway, because they can't afford any penalties, and a warrior will get ** because it's easy and is basically the same as now, except better.
Ultimately trying to enforce the heavier weapon rules is a waste of time, because it won't hurt a warrior even if they decided to only use *..it would only be an additional -2 to each hand for them...which they could ignore if they wanted too, though most would go ahead and grab ** at creation since they can't place more the 2 in an ability then ANYWAY..., and rogues would go for ** ASAP anyway to remove the main-hand penalty.
I'm just trying to find where the stats for weapon styles are located. I found where you can set how many proficiency points a class can place in something, which is easy enough to fix...but I don't know where the proficiency values are themselves, or I'd just swap them myself and be done with it.
Rogue-rebalancing corrects most of the other issues I have with rogues..but doesn't alter the proficiency system itself..it merely allows rogues to place 3 two weapon points and gives blade/swash free *** at creation. Not exactly what I'm looking for, since it's still costing them 1 point more then it should and ** is weaker then it should be.
Still doesn't fix bards to my liking though...they added lingering song as a HLA which sort of helps, but bard songs are supposed to last 1 round/level, with a radius of 10 ft/level. Except the Jester who uses a different scaling chart. And the blade who can't even use his bard song.
Comments
As it stands now you want to implement a change to make your characters more powerful without the accompanying restrictions.
Double the non-proficiency penalty, -6/-8 for warriors, -10/-12 for mages, -7/-9 for everyone else.
Well...I'm not 100% sure what the engine can and can't do...I know that you can implement alternate thac0 based on weapon type, but I don't know if you can make it go away based on proficiency.
Anyone familar with modding the engine wanna chime in?
Is it possible to set it up to:
A: IF the off-hand weapon isn't a dagger, shield or short sword, apply a lets say -4/-4 thac0 penalty to both hands
B: When Two-weapon hits **, it no longer applies the penalty.
I was thinking maybe you could increase the thac0 bonus on ** to compensate, but that would give a bonus to thac0 when using allowed light weapons.
As above, I know basically nothing about in depth modding, so someone more knowledgeable would be nice.
In addition, the bonus/penalty stacks between the two weapons. So if you're wielding two katanas, your off-hand penalty will be -4; if you're wielding two daggers, it will be +0; if you're wielding a dagger and a long sword, it will be -1; and if you're wielding a Katana and a Scimitar, it will be -3.
That's in addition to the existing TWS penalties; so with three pips, wielding two katanas, your total penalty will be -7.
I'd recommend using that mod, with another mod that changes the TWS penalty table to be what you want it to be.
At *, your dual-wield is -2/-4 with a light off-hand.
**, it's 0/-2 and doesn't matter what weapons you wield.
***, if they used it would be 0/0, with any weapons (and rangers would get for free)
Can a mod do that? Apply a penalty based on the weapon type, but then remove it once the two-weapon proficency hits the correct level.
Though...I had a thought...are proficiencies cumulative or do they replace the lower version?
Once again you're talking about a potential +6 bonus (via removed penalty) to your attack rolls from a single proficiency slot.
The situational bonuses/penalties allow you to have a better THAC0 with light weapons at the expense of damage; if you allow the player to bypass that restriction, once again you've created a problem with Two Weapon Style being stupidly (that is, stupidly as an intensifier, not a descriptor of intelligence) more powerful than either of the other two available options.
Two Weapon fighting is already really powerful.
My proposed changes wouldn't affect warrior types at all, most don't spend 3 points any way, and they already reap full benefits from using any two 1hd handed weapons they want...
this change would merely bring rogues up to their proper level of dual-wielding. A rogue isn't going to pass up getting ** anyway, because they can't afford any penalties, and a warrior will get ** because it's easy and is basically the same as now, except better.
Ultimately trying to enforce the heavier weapon rules is a waste of time, because it won't hurt a warrior even if they decided to only use *..it would only be an additional -2 to each hand for them...which they could ignore if they wanted too, though most would go ahead and grab ** at creation since they can't place more the 2 in an ability then ANYWAY..., and rogues would go for ** ASAP anyway to remove the main-hand penalty.
I'm just trying to find where the stats for weapon styles are located. I found where you can set how many proficiency points a class can place in something, which is easy enough to fix...but I don't know where the proficiency values are themselves, or I'd just swap them myself and be done with it.
Unfortunately...overhauling the arcane magic system is far beyond me (seeing my other post, http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12201/overhaul-of-arcane-magic-system), so that I'm gonna have to leave to someone else.
Rogue-rebalancing corrects most of the other issues I have with rogues..but doesn't alter the proficiency system itself..it merely allows rogues to place 3 two weapon points and gives blade/swash free *** at creation. Not exactly what I'm looking for, since it's still costing them 1 point more then it should and ** is weaker then it should be.
Still doesn't fix bards to my liking though...they added lingering song as a HLA which sort of helps, but bard songs are supposed to last 1 round/level, with a radius of 10 ft/level. Except the Jester who uses a different scaling chart. And the blade who can't even use his bard song.