Bard Overhaul

ZanathKariashi

Same as current except where noted.

Two Weapon style (Corrected, for PnP)- Only warriors and rogues can put points into two weapon style.

Step 1: Non-proficiency penalty remains the same
Step 2: * penalty becomes -2 MH, -4 off-hand (as PnP, for basic proficiency in DWing)
Step 3: ** penalty becomes 0 MH, -2 OH (As per PnP, Rogues and warriors can both place up to 2 points)
Step 4: *** Becomes 0/0. Rangers start with *** for free.


All Bards -

Can place up to two points in (corrected) Two Weapon style.


Bard -
Bard Song correction.

Effect is +1 damage, +1 saves, +2 Morale at all levels. Range 10 ft/level, duration 1 round/level. Requires 3 rounds of singing to take effect.

Epic Bard Song - +2 hit/damage, +2 saves, immunity to fear and morale break, Range 10 ft/level, duration 1 round/level. Requires only 1 round to take effect.


Jester -

Confusion effect lasts 2 rounds at lvl 15, and 3 rounds at lvl 21+.
Slow Effect lasts 2 rounds at lvl 21+

Epic Jester song.
All song effects saves are made with a -2 penalty. Grants constant immunity to charm, confusion, and feeblemind.

Blade -

Begins the game with * in two weapon fighting.

Bard song is disabled.

Gains Whirlwind attack instead of Epic Bard song.

Skald -

Skald Song. Range 10 ft/level, duration 1 round/level. Requires 3 rounds of singing to take effect.

Epic Skald Song - Same as current Epic Bard Song, except, range 10 ft/level, duration 1 round/level, only requires 1 round to activate.

Tanthalas

ZanathKariashi said:

Same as current except where noted.

All Bards -

Automatically proficient in two weapon style at creation, and can place up to 3 points into it. (All Warriors and Rogues are automatically proficient in two weapon fighting, and can master it by spending proficiency points)

@CamDawg - "BG isn't PnP."

But more seriously, you're basically taking away one of the few perks of Rangers by making half the classes get free points in two weapon fighting.

toanwrath

Wait, I am a bit confused. Does this mean Blades can specialize now? Or is this simply a recommendation?

ZanathKariashi

Actually I'm not.....I'm asking for them to be given what they're SUPPOSED to have.

Two weapon style only has 2 levels of specialization in PnP, not 3 as in BG. Only warriors and rogues can even put points in two weapon style in PnP (hence the free * for proficiency). * in PnP is the same as ** in BG. ** in PnP is the same as *** in BG (and also allows using same size weapons with no penalty).

According to the changes I'm championing (over in my dual-wielding fix request), Rangers, swashbucklers and Blades would all gain 3 two at creation for free. Other warriors and rogues would start proficient and could put additional points if they desired.

Rangers are never supposed to suffer a penalty when using two weapons unless the off-hand weapon is medium. You could perhaps give swashbucklers and Blades **, and give Rangers ***....that way they maintain a slight edge, without nerfing the other rogue's melee ability.

Tanthalas

And like I quotted in my other post "BG is not PnP".

Yes, there are several instances where BG follows PnP, but in truth you should consider the game "house-ruled".

That's not to say that I don't enjoy mods that bring BG closer to PnP rules, but applying this bonus would power-up a lot of classes without any real need to do so while taking away from Rangers one of the few perks they have over other classes.

ZanathKariashi

Rangers are one of the more powerful classes in the game (and if you don't think so, you need to learn to play).....Bards are about worthless because their bard song doesn't do what it's supposed to, and their melee is garbage because the game refuses to allow them to master two weapon fighting, relegating them to ranged weapons only if they're even going to compete.

And I'm not asking for them to get stuff they don't have even in PnP...they're SUPPOSED to have this.

Tanthalas

Umm, Blades are already one of the most powerful kits in the game.

ZanathKariashi

Yeah...and whats the only bard worth playing? The least Bard-like of them all. Don't use a skald cause a blade can eventually have just as a good a song and is better in melee cause they get actually dual-wield and get kai...don't play a normal bard or jester cause they have no melee presence at all and their songs are garbage....

It's not an MMO chief...it's not supposed to be "balanced" or "fair" I simply want the classes to have everything they're supposed to.


@ Toanwrath Blades have been able to specialize since BG2 came out (most likely a bug, since it's inconsistent). Sometimes when importing a bard from BG1 and changing them into a blade, it allows you to specialize in any bladed weapon (excluding Daggers and short swords) during creation. It's strange since it's random if it lets you not.

Tanthalas

ZanathKariashi said:

It's not an MMO chief...it's not supposed to be "balanced" or "fair" I simply want the classes to have everything they're supposed to.

And again, this isn't PnP, they aren't supposed to have free points in two weapon fighting.

reedmilfam

I agree, except for the 2-weapon part. That is, in my estimation, silly and unprecedented. Lingering songs, however, are a good thing. In essence, I partially agree - I like the adjustments to the songs, and think they would be nice.

ZanathKariashi

Give me a bit, and I'll get some scans from the hand books showing where all warriors and rogues are innately proficient in two weapon style and can buff it up to max proficiency.

So, it's not unprecedented, the original design team was just lazy about implementing the rules. (and if the dexterity modifying dual-wielding was properly applied, they wouldn't even NEED to put points in two weapon style. The big perk of two weapon style in PnP is the ability to wield 2 medium weapons without penalty (and it reduced the dual-wield penalty for low dex characters)

Moomintroll

I would like to see the songs made more interesting, wether in variety, progression..
I wouldn't play blade for the same reasons that you've suggested they are more played, they don't feel bardy!

reedmilfam

No, they're not. 2nd edition does not give anybody innate 2-weapon style (except rangers).

elminster

ZanathKariashi said:

Yeah...and whats the only bard worth playing? The least Bard-like of them all. Don't use a skald cause a blade can eventually have just as a good a song and is better in melee cause they get actually dual-wield and get kai...don't play a normal bard or jester cause they have no melee presence at all and their songs are garbage....

It's not an MMO chief...it's not supposed to be "balanced" or "fair" I simply want the classes to have everything they're supposed to.


@ Toanwrath Blades have been able to specialize since BG2 came out (most likely a bug, since it's inconsistent). Sometimes when importing a bard from BG1 and changing them into a blade, it allows you to specialize in any bladed weapon (excluding Daggers and short swords) during creation. It's strange since it's random if it lets you not.

3/4 of the series through yes blades can get just as powerful as a song. But I don't see why someone would use a blade for the bard song. Its clearly a class for up close fighting not support. Plus tenser's transformation makes any bard a useful fighter up close (or ranged) at higher levels. The jester songs save can be easily modded, and it is still useful if you want to go invisible and use it on enemies. Having enemies running around or attacking each other has its uses. Plus Skalds get a great supportive song up until level 24 or so, which frankly I think you are too quickly dismissing here over their reduced strength with melee.

ZanathKariashi

Rangers don't get innate 2 weapon style at all. They simply have no penalty for dual-wielding, and actually have no reason to put points in the style except to unlock the ability to wield two medium weapons, and it's not free. It costs them ** just like everyone else.

Here's part one of the proof. Cut from the 2nd ed player's handbook, pg 127 http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u412/ZanathKariashi/DW1.jpg?t=1355519197

Here's the other parts, that go in detail about weapon styles cut from Complete warrior, pgs 84 and 96.

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u412/ZanathKariashi/DW2.jpg?t=1355519839
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u412/ZanathKariashi/DW3.jpg?t=1355519828

reedmilfam

@elminster - because sometimes that Blade's got to siiiiing ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

From the Holy Grail

ZanathKariashi

@ Elminster

Don't misunderstand me, I know full well how powerful Bards can be...I'm more pissed about them getting LESS abilities then they're SUPPOSED to have according to the core books, while everyone else is getting all sorts of broken crap out of supplemental splat books.

PnP Bard Song -
http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u412/ZanathKariashi/bard.jpg?t=1355388250

They're also supposed to get a counter song that blocks things like charm, confusion, command while played.

LaughingMan

@ZanathKariashi My knee-jerk to this was "WTF is this guy on..."

Then I read your explanation and went straight to "Oh yeah... he's completely spot-on".

I think the weapon stuff would be pretty easy to mod though. I understand advocating for more PnP based core changes, but getting a mod made is way faster. The bard songs and abilities are a bit more work, but I'm fairly sure no less possible.

I also completely support your "not an MMO" position, every time I see a "balance" or "Nerf" request I want to claw my eyes out.

ZanathKariashi

I might be willing to accept a compromise on the dual-wielding though....since after re-reading the rules more carefully, they might not be getting the basic proficiency for free (they do in the core handbook, but the two weapon rule seems to imply they need to send a point) but it requires a few tweaks to the current bonuses, since the ranks give the wrong bonuses (there should only be 2 lvls of two weapon fighting) (Though if the dex bonus to DWing was implemented they wouldn't need it, but may or may not be more complicated then tweaking a few proficiency stats).

Step 1: Non-proficiency remains the same (Only Warriors and Rogues can place points in Two Weapon)
Step 2: * becomes -2 MH, -4 off-hand (as is PnP for basic proficiency in DWing, currently a mix of * and ** in BG)
Step 3: ** becomes 0 MH, -2 OH (As per PnP for **. Rogues and warriors can both place up to 2 points)
Step 4: *** Becomes 0/0. Rangers start with it for free, and no one else can place 3 points (giving them their free penalty-less dual-wielding, as is proper PnP)


Swashbuckler Tweaks (as per PnP)
(loses all current abilities)
When wielding a bladed weapon, their thac0 becomes equal of a fighter of their level.
Gains * free in two weapon fighting (replaces the extra point they're supposed to get since their favored weapon types aren't in BG).
Gains a 1/2 attack at lvl 7 and lvl 13.
Only gains 20 thief skill per level
Cannot backstab.

ZanathKariashi

@Laughingman

I don't really even care about something being OP or not, I could careless, but if the system says it's based on 2nd edition, then I feel it should follow it as closely as possible. There's so many of those kits that in no way resemble ANY published version of the kit (see my swashbuckler tweak above, which is MUCH more in line with the Complete Thieves version then that mess that's currently in the game).

Just because a class can be powerful if min/maxed with the monty haul gear BG and BG2 throws at you, it's no excuse to remove abilities (especially for the poor vanilla Bard).


Rogue re-balancing, the mod corrects some of this stuff, but it doesn't base problem with proficiencies, mentioned in the post above. It helps, but ultimately doesn't change things that much.

Of course, I'd be happy just to have mods that correct the functionality, but at current there's very few that even attempt it.

LaughingMan

@ZanathKariashi The swashbuckler THAC0 tweak may be beyond me, as it gets into some weird specifics. The other stuff though is quite moddable.

Edit: And I generally agree, especially where core classes are concerned. Kits I care less about "accuracy" than I do about "theme".

IchigoRXC

There is no correction unless if it was bugged in the first place. It is your preference to follow the rules of second edition strictly while it was the developers choice not to. As you said, it is 'based off of Second edition', that is not a copy but merely a base on which to work from.

I can understand that you may want things differently and sure it would be great if there were mods in which would fulfil your wishes, they are however not fixes or corrections of the game, because it was never meant to have that functionality in the first place. It is an addition, one that brings it more inline with PnP, thus taking it further away from the games actual system.

LaughingMan

@IchigoRXC Which is part of why I think we've started discussing doing what he's looking for via a mod, as that's more realistic anyway.

Sixheadeddog

First of all, the weapon styles are optional parts of the 2nd edition mechanics when it comes right down to it. Single Weapon, Two-Handed, Two-Weapon and Weapon-and-Shield styles were all introduced in the Complete Fighter's Handbook (along with the concept of kits), and they were all introduced as optional components of the system. Most tabletop games of AD&D back in the day didn't even use them, and the Bard class was never "supposed" to have two-weapon fighting. In fact, as has been mentioned, the only class that comes anywhere near to being "supposed" to have two-weapon fighting is the Ranger, and this mechanic is preserved in the original game.

The snips you posted above were from a "revised" Core Rules 2.0 version of the 2nd edition PHB (almost no one I knew when I was gaming 2nd edition even owned this book...), and from a PDF of the Complete FIghter's Handbook (which, again, was an optional supplement and hardly "canon" rules).

A true "vanilla" Bard, according to actual 2nd edition mechanics, does not have this ability.

Sixheadeddog

I think I've isolated the point of contention, here. Page 96 of the original 2nd edition PHB does say: "A tricky fighting style available only to warriors and rogues is that of fighting with two weapons simultaneously."

Read one way, this may be taken to mean that ALL Warriors (Fighters, Rangers and Paladins) and Rogues (Thieves and Bards) should get one slot of two-weapon style for free. But that's silly. Really silly. And the text doesn't actually mean that at all: in fact, what it actually means is pretty much the way that BG is set up anyway: that warriors and rogues are able to equip a second weapon in the shield slot. They get penalties when they do this, of course -- unless they rank up in two-weapon style.

As you yourself said earlier in this discussion, the weapon style proficiencies implemented in BG2 and BGEE are only approximations of the tabletop system -- in the latter, as you explained, there are only two "ranks" of each style, not four as in BG. It's also worth noting that, in 2nd edition, there's really only one rank of specialization, *and* a character is supposed to be limited to being specialized in just one weapon. BG changes this to suit a "video game" mechanic, and the system works well. Similarly, the weapon styles as given work well, and the Bard class (whatever you may think it is lacking) also works well.

In short, I really don't see any kind of justification for giving Bards this ability. It doesn't fit them, either the way they played in BG or the way they played in 2nd edition.

ZanathKariashi

And you're completely ignoring the fact that they ARE using the optional rules, which clearly states all rogues can specialize in two weapon style. 2ndly, according to the book, basic proficiency is -2/-4, while currently basic proficiency is -2/-6, and all characters are automatically proficient in any styles they can use, but only warriors can specialize in all of them, the rest can only specialize in one style (the one style is technically up to the player, but only two weapon is actually worth specializing in, so any rogue will always take it since it's a massive increase in combat viability something rogues are otherwise sub-par).

Rangers are actually currently getting gip'd. They're not supposed to have a dual-wield penalty at all (currently have 0/-4 and require spending another point for 0/-2 which is still wrong), and while they do gain basic proficiency for free, as do all warriors/rogues, they don't get specialization in it for free...and don't really need it, except to unlock same-size dual-wielding.


Bards are currently sub-par in combat compared to what they should be, since dual-wielding was the only real buff to direct melee they got above magic users and priests. They still have crappy rogue thac0, 1 base attack, and unlike a thief, can't gamble on a single attack for massive damage.


While I don't especially like it, since it's not supposed to work that way, I can live with not getting automatic proficincy, but I can't tolerate being limited to merely being proficient, as well as the changes that were made to Two-weapon style, for no real reason.