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Killing off [spoiler]

carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
edited July 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
It was the original plan to have Imoen killed by Irenicus, but they scrapped it later (not sure why?).

I personally preferred BG1's storyline partly because I felt that the motivation for pursuing Irenicus after Spellhold was rather weak. I didn't feel any connection to having 'lost my soul'--it seems that those without souls still have motivation (like, the motivation to get their soul back), so I wasn't entirely sure what it meant for me for Irenicus to have it or why I would even want it back. It wasn't really expounded upon. Just "Oh no, Irenicus took your soul, how dastardly, go get him for it!".

The tree thing was a 'save the day' kind of thing, but a selfish/evil character wouldn't care. Unless maybe out of self-preservation (it wasn't clear to me whether Irenicus getting what he wanted would spell the doom of everyone, or not...).

Killing off Imoen would have given you a reason of vengeance added. Beside which with her being out of the loop for a large chunk of the game she wasn't the most attractive party member to have back.

What's your feeling on the matter? I personally would have liked it to be possible for her to be killed off, or not as now; i.e. you can influence the outcome.
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Comments

  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    ^ Doesn't say Irenicus...
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375

    Rather we focus on what does make your soul special. The loss of your special abilities apparently not enough, maybe there needs a bigger explanation of what happens. For example, what happens to a soulless creature who dies? Can't be pretty. Could be an interesting discussion with a spiritual partymember (Aerie/Jaheira/Viconia/Anomen/Keldorn)
    I don't disagree with that either.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    So Irenicus would first kidnap Imoen then you'd chase her and never get her back because she'll be killed. They invested a huge chunk of money in recording lines and stuff for Melissa Disney to voice Imoen and wrote all those lines of dialogue for Imoen. They can't change original content supposedly.

    If they could redo the plot of post-spellhold BG2 then it might make sense to do something different. Maybe a plot by Irenicus to torture Gorions soul or something.

    At that point in the story post-spellhold the protagonist is just learning about his destiny as a Bhaalspawn by first turning to the slayer after his soul was stolen and even then he still has enough essence or whatever left to turn into the slayer.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    It was the original plan to have Imoen killed by Irenicus, but they scrapped it later (not sure why?).
    As I recall, once the plans to kill Imoen leaked there were a lot of unhappy players. Nalia is a drop-in replacement for Imoen, more or less.
    They invested a huge chunk of money in recording lines and stuff for Melissa Disney to voice Imoen and wrote all those lines of dialogue for Imoen.
    It was a late decision in the development cycle to keep Imoen alive which is why she has little dialogue (voiced or not) post-Spellhold relative to the other party members.

  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    So Irenicus would first kidnap Imoen then you'd chase her and never get her back because she'll be killed. They invested a huge chunk of money in recording lines and stuff for Melissa Disney to voice Imoen and wrote all those lines of dialogue for Imoen. They can't change original content supposedly.
    I'm not suggesting they do, it was a 'what if' question. Also: they didn't record a lot of lines for her; she was originally planned to die and so she was low on dialog after your reunion with her, at least until TOB.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited July 2012

    As I recall, once the plans to kill Imoen leaked there were a lot of unhappy players.
    Bah.

    Were the plot-writers overruled by someone else, I wonder, or were they the ones who listened to the complaints? I wish they would show more confidence in their art and decision-making, fans be damned. I've seen both games and tv shows spoiled because of 'fan-service' where they didn't have the heart to kill a popular character off even though it was necessary for the evolution of the plot-line. It's treating the parts as more important than the whole.

    It's a given that fans will vocalise at the prospect of their favourite character dying; if it were me I'd put faith in their being enough fans of the game alone, whether or not that character was there. I doubt that there are many people who like Baldur's Gate just because of Imoen.

    Maybe choices you make during your dream-sequences could add or subtract from a score and influence PC's/Imoen's stats; if you choose selfishly too often she doesn't have the spiritual strength to endure what Irenicus does to her. I think it would have been neat.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    edited July 2012
    Had you taken Yoshimo as your party thief to replace Imoen and brought him to Spellhold, you'd have ended up with no thief until exiting Underdark... I'm glad they didn't kill her because I took Yoshimo in my first playthrough and had no other thief.

    Unless Saemon was originally planned to be recruitable :D
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    I like that Imoen wasn't killed off. >_>

    I don't think killing her off was something necessary to the plot.
    Guess not. But I think there's a gameplay reason and a plot reason to have her die.

    The gameplay reason is that she makes an underlevelled thief/mage for what is probably the last 90% of the game (unless you're playing all the side-quests after chapter 5).

    The other is: think: if you like Imoen as much as you say, and as much as you're loathe to see her die, wouldn't it make you want to kill that bastard Irenicus all the more if he did murder her?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @caruga

    Technically, you can get Imoen relatively early in the game and still have plenty to do, many people just do everything before going to Spellhold.

    As for the other reason, I didn't really need any extra motivation, so its really a non-issue for me.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375

    As for the other reason, I didn't really need any extra motivation, so its really a non-issue for me.
    What was your in-character motivation?
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited July 2012
    The kidnap of Imoen create a goog behavior justify to a good character go to spell hold. A Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral character would have no reason to follow Irenicus if the only kidnapped person by the Crowled Wizards was him. Justice would had already been served.

    Imoem death would have to change A LOT of things, as Bodhi would never be able to get a divine soul for her, what would kill her reasons to work with irenicus, Khalid reason to die would not exist if imoem where to be dead, and a lot of ToB banters with Imoen aware of her condition as a children of Bhaal would be lost. While the last point would be just a loss of content, the previous ones would disrupt the base of the bhaalspaw plot saga.
  • WinthalWinthal Member Posts: 366
    the BG-saga does indeed lack a more fleshed out evil path, I too found the hook to find Imoen weak... besides, it's like the game just assumes you're of good alignment, you start the game with Imoen, Minsc, Jaheira and supposedly Khalid/Dynaheir... almost every quest in the game plays out better/makes more sense if you're good. Bioware didn't really succeed in making a viable evil path in a game until KOTOR 1 imo...
  • WazDuluthWazDuluth Member Posts: 8
    If Imoen dies, you have my vote.
  • RaudellRaudell Member Posts: 2
    @Winthal Well, D&D itself discourages PCs from playing evil characters, so it makes sense that BG would assume the same.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    edited July 2012
    What is this 'evil path' talk. Evil is an end unto itself. If a character is evil, all they need do is kill, betray, and otherwise swindle everything and everyone they come across. The BG world does not reward evil greatly, it tries to limit it, by lowering reputation, spawning flaming fist mercenaries, and drastically increasing prices of goods at stores ect... Normal people in the BG world aren't a fan of evil.

    Look at it another way, aside from the intellectual curiosity of analyzing sociopaths, what is the point in going the evil path? There is no ultimate motive for the evil path, aside from acquiring material possession and racking up xp points by taking down do-gooders. True evil is banal and is uninteresting as a plot device. This probably explains why good vs. evil is the norm. We do not pass down tales through the ages of 'the great glorious evil', no, we pass down tales of that which thwarted the evil against all odds.
  • MajocaMajoca Member Posts: 263
    Since everyone is talking about the good and evil part of Baldurs gate I find it annoying that the game does go against you when you play the game as evil. I can understand how people can reward others who are doing good, but evil paths should allow manipulation, trickery and fear to get an advantage. Evil is subjective too, evil doesn't mean stupid, it can be cruel, intelligent and effective

    Sometimes I dont want to play a do gooder who can only see hope and a workd of peace. I want to find power, steal and manipulate fools, call me sick haha but I like the evil party members like viconia, xzar and montaron and its part of the game that can seem dull with all evil options being silly and pointless.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    Is it evil to kill Noober?....
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    You get no rep loss for killing him, so its basically neutral like: "That wasn't very nice but he was a royal pain in the arse, so i understand."
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited July 2012
    Is it evil to kill Noober?....
    No, it's awesome.

    Space Noober on the other hand...
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    While I understand that there are no plans to modify existing quests in the series, it might be fun to have more neutral or morally-gray options for new content. Shoot the dog rather than kick the dog, so to speak (have a look on tvtropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheDog).

    I think an interesting character who took evil paths (but not always) is the practical incarnation in Planescape: Torment. He manipulates, decieves and kills to achieve his ends, but not more than he has to. Having the ability to do something similar would be intrigueing. That said, I'm going Boyscout Cavalier first playthrough. My selfish swashbuckler would like some opportunities to be naughty though.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    @Winthal Well, D&D itself discourages PCs from playing evil characters, so it makes sense that BG would assume the same.
    Only on the frist D&D edition, where the concepts of good and evil don't even exist, ppl there where only Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic (if i remember well, i was probally 7 years old when i brought the D&D P&P box).

    BG don't try to avoid evil players by nature, as some missions in the game can only be done by evil players. I believe that, in BG, was more a lack of content or mistake forgetfulness of the evil patch by the original creators of the game than an intentioned discouragement of evil patch
  • WinthalWinthal Member Posts: 366
    @Raudell D&D is completely free-form, that's the beauty of it. Your dungeon master can run a campaign where the players are Bane worshipers being tasked to protect an important stronghold or holy site dedicated to Bane, and later be rewarded as heroes (of sorts) by that particular faction... D&D really is what you make it :)
  • IranicusIranicus Member Posts: 10
    Imoens just one of the characters you grow attached to personally I find, like her friendly girlish attitude in BG1 towards you does kind of stick to you and from the start of BG2, the speech she gives you at the start sells it quite well in terms of gaining repsect for her that spurs you on to want to get her back from Irenicus. :>
  • AsmodiasAsmodias Member Posts: 22
    Nobody hurts my little sister! NO ONE! As soon as he kidnapped her I went into a rage mode.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    Nobody hurts my little sister! NO ONE! As soon as he kidnapped her I went into a rage mode.
    Isn't she more of a cousin? ;)

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