Nah...after NWN2 butchered Warlocks so badly, I'd prefer they not be added to any other CRPGs, unless they can be done faithfully (which in BG2 they can't).
Also the 2nd edition warlock is garbage....they use the spell point system, and choose their known spells from a limited list of Arcane and druid spells.....(they get limited known spells per spell level like a sorcerer but use spell points kind of like a psionics for casting which would be a huge headache I'm sure to implement)
Wrong kind of warlocks, 2nd edition warlocks are just male witches. They get a bunch of charms, illusions, a few choice nature magics, mostly summoning or weather related, shape shifting stuff, some divination..a familar...can't remember the rest..I'll have to dig out my manual.
But not all at once. They get a limited number of spells they can know like a sorcerer does, but cast them using the spell point method (though it can be converted to work like a sorcerer with a little tinkering)
Nah...after NWN2 butchered Warlocks so badly, I'd prefer they not be added to any other CRPGs, unless they can be done faithfully (which in BG2 they can't).
Also the 2nd edition warlock is garbage....they use the spell point system, and choose their known spells from a limited list of Arcane and druid spells.....(they get limited known spells per spell level like a sorcerer but use spell points kind of like a psionics for casting which would be a huge headache I'm sure to implement)
Um. What? This isn't accurate. What source is this coming from? The Witch kit from the Wizard's Handbook is nothing like what you're describing.
To this request, I say no. No! No, no, no, please god no! If for no other reason than to keep the entire gaming industry away from the trend of imitating World of Warcraft.
I should also say it would almost be a little superfluous. There are a ton of summoning spells already in the game, including a Familiar mechanic. There's almost no way to make the kind of warlock you're describing stand out without completely breaking the game and making them OP.
But...Warlocks in D&D came before warlocks in WoW. >_>
If you're talking about the 2nd edition Witch class, it's not the same thing. If you're talking about something 3rd edition... I have no idea, but it still is probably a pretty bad idea.
The 3rd edition is a whole different monster. Unlimited , at-will spell casting, but a very tiny amount of "spells" that aren't really spells that often combine elements of several arcane spells but weaken them slightly. And the ability at lvl 12 to potentially cast any non-epic arcane or divine spell in the game without failure, if you had the time, gold, xp to craft a scroll of it (Though it takes some finagling to get your caster level boosted high enough to create 17th caster level scrolls (minimum required for 9th lvl spells) at level12, doable, but takes some work.
They're ok....but they're really boring till you get Fell Flight (just blasting enemies and summoning swarms bats and insects to obliterate the enemies while everyone glares at you for taking all the challenge out of the encounter or using your at-will invisibility or dimension doors to get the hell out of Dodge when things go south)..which is basically THE most important invocation they get...I've yet to see a single warlock not take it immediately.
They're a bit underwhelming at epic levels though cause their Epic Invocations require specific invocations and unless you drop feats on extra invocations you'll rarely have enough for one or two without gimping yourself (I usually spend most of my feats on item crafting when I play a warlock since they can craft almost anything), and while they're pretty awesome on a personal level, they don't really bring the umph that epic level spellcasting for the other casters does. Still At-will teleport without error, planeshifting, truesight, double eldritch blasts with 2 blast mods each, tongues, perfect double speed flight, the ability to use shadow conjuration/invocation/shades at will to duplicate any mage spell up to 7th level (but with reduced effect).
If not Warlocks, I'd still like to see a new class in BG2EE. I appreciated the Blackguard's addition in BGEE, but I'm not particularly interested in playing one since Dorn is so easily recruited and powerful.
Not sure if Warlocks in 2e are/were alignment-restricted, but I'd prefer a new class that isn't. That way, if a new NPC has that class, I wouldn't be unbalancing my party by rolling a PC of the same class.
Re: New Classes... I don't think we'll see new classes added to the "EE" series of Beamdog releases. If anything, I think that the Blackguard shows us what the way ahead will look like for these games: I think that all of the main BG classes (except Paladin and Mage) will probably each get a new kit. So, that would mean one new flavor for Fighter, Ranger, Thief, Bard, Cleric and Druid.
If there is a new Cleric kit, I'd lay safe odds on it being built as another Forgotten Realms specialty priesthood -- no shortage of material to draw on there.
They should add the Gallant, bard kit (from Complete Bard). Can wear any armor or shield, can specialize in 1 weapon type, cannot use ranged weapons, can't use wands or cast directly from scrolls, but can still learn spells from them. Is immune to fear and can sing while fighting to imbue part members with bonus morale, and when they would die from a spell or lethal damage, they become immune to everything, clearing any harmful effects for 4 rounds and can continue attacking or casting, before dropping dead at the end of the 4th round.
They should add the Gallant, bard kit (from Complete Bard). Can wear any armor or shield, can specialize in 1 weapon type, cannot use ranged weapons, can't use wands or cast directly from scrolls, but can still learn spells from them. Is immune to fear and can sing while fighting to imbue part members with bonus morale, and when they would die from a spell or lethal damage, they become immune to everything, clearing any harmful effects for 4 rounds and can continue attacking or casting, before dropping dead at the end of the 4th round.
Seems fun! Just one issue, though. I like the ability to stave off death for four rounds before collapsing, but unless there's some way to stop the eventual collapse, the ability is useless to a PC because they cannot be resurrected. So the only Gallant in the game would be an NPC.
I suppose you could replace it with a +8 save vs death or something, Or give them Avoid Death, once per day, and additional uses at 10, 20, 30, 40. They're already giving up quite a bit with the loss of wand and scroll usage, so having limited access to one highly specialized HLA wouldn't hurt much.
The thing you should bear in mind is that I don't think Beamdog can add any really drastically new mechanics to the game with anything they add. So I think Zanath's suggested fix is probably more sound than a direct adaptation of the Gallant's ability.
The only issue I would have with adding the Gallant class is that it seems a little redundant; that is, of the three kits currently available to Bards in BG/BG2, the Blade already has the "good at fighting" thing covered. I think there are some far better choices for appropriation from the Bard Handbook that expand the different flavors of the class: •Gypsy-Bard: This kit would gain some of the listed semi-druidic spell-like powers, with a secondary specialty in divination magics •Loremaster: Could be appropriated to be a magic-focused bard kit •Meistersinger: Could be given new bard songs that charm and summon animals (a neat thing to give the bard, since apart from the Conjurer specialist there aren't really any classes in BG devoted to summoning) •Thespian/Charlatan: Here, either name could be used and applied to the same concept, lifted from the Final Fantasy series: a bard kit whose focus is mimicking enemy abilities. (not even sure if that would be possible within the game's existing framework, but it would be an interesting twist)
Oh of course, as part of this fix, the other bard kits would have their abilities corrected (as close as possible) as well. (All disadvantages are replaced with the new ones below)
All Bards - Can place up to 3 points in two weapon fighting Enhanced Bard song doesn't alter how Bard or Skald Song works, just the bonus given.
Plain Bard - Same as now except
Bard Song- (Songs with different effects stack, all versions stack with Skald Song) Choose one Effect: +2 Morale or +1 Hit or +1 Saves
1 round cast time, Range 10ft/level, lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/level, cannot be used in LoS of an enemy.
Counter Song - Forces a save vs spell on allies, if successful, dispel any harmful charm/enchantment spells on the ally. Usable any time.
Blade - No wands, no scrolls (but can still learn spells), no song, cannot use ranged weapons (except Darts, throwing daggers or throwing axes) -5% chance to learn spells. (Weapon Display and both spins gain uses at the same rate) Weapon display (1 round cast, +1 hit allies/-1 hit enemies for 1 round/level, 30 ft radius) Defensive Spin (Works the same as now, but also forces a save vs death or take damage to attackers in melee equal to half the Blades level) Offensive Spin (1 round cast, Next hit causes Fear for 5 rounds, no save) Can make called shots at the same progression as an archer, using hurled weapons Starts with *** Two Weapon style (0 MH/-2 OH) for free at creation (as per PnP) (Selects HLA from the warrior pool)
Skald- Can wear up to regular platemail or any shield +1 hit/damage passive (Cannot learn HLA Traps)
Skald Song- Effects are cumulative (Does not stack with itself) lvl 1 - +1 hit lvl 3 - +1 damage lvl 6 - +1 Saves lvl 9 - + 1 bonus Hp/level lvl 12 - +1 morale per 6/levels lvl 15 - -1 AC
1 round cast time, Song lasts 3 rounds +1/level, Range 10ft/level, cannot be used in LOS of an enemy.
Counter Song - Forces a save vs spell on allies, if successful, dispel any charm/enchantment spells on the ally. Usable anytime.
-25% Chance to learn spells. Caster level -1, cannot cast from scrolls.
Jester - Cannot Wear armor above studded leather, except elven chain. Can only become proficient in daggers, short swords, clubs, slings, darts, quarterstaff (Cannot learn Enhanced Bard Song)
Constant +1 luck bonus, +1 Bonus to AC, +15 Pickpockets
Immune to confusion, adds +1 saves/level vs charm/enchantment spells.
Taunt - 30ft range, per round Enemies must save vs spells at -1/3 levels, or be forced to attack the jester for 1 round. (Mindless Undead or similar mindless creatures are immune, as are creatures with higher then 18 intelligence). Usable any time.
Tell Joke - Force a save vs spells per round on allies, if successful dispel fear or confusion effects on the ally. Usable any time.
Gallant- Cannot use wands or scrolls (can still learn spells from them) Cannot use ranged weapons Cannot be Evil -50 pickpockets Gallant's who violate the Gallant's Code (less then 10 rep) permanently lose all special abilities and benefits aside from weapon and armor use but gain +50 Pickpockets.
Can wear any armor, helm or shield usable by warriors. Can specialize in 1 medium weapon. Gains an additional +1 HP per level, on top of other bonuses Gains constant +1 luck bonus. Immune to Fear Inspire Courage - Their song gives a +4 to saves vs fear and +2 Morale. Forces a save vs spells on allies each round. If successful, it dispels any fear effects on allies. Usable any time. Can use Avoid Death 1 per day. Can cast a special Charm Person, 1/day per 10 levels. Save is made at -1 per 3/levels if the targets gender is opposite the gallant's, or no bonus for the same. (Selects HLA from the warrior pool)
Meistersinger- Cannot wear armor greater then leather (except elven chain). Cannot sing Cannot use 2handed weapons, aside from quarterstaves. Lore skill is only 50% of normal. -10 Pickpockets, -10% chance to learn spells. Must be Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral (Due to limitations of the Find Familiar spell). (Cannot learn UAI or enhanced Bard song)
(The Meistersinger's song calls permanent animal companions to him, replaced by the summon spells below)
lvl 1: Can Cast Find Familiar as a special ability, can cast charm animal 1/day per level. Can cast Sanctuary 1/day, gains additional uses at 10, 20, 30, 40. lvl 3: Can Cast summon Animal 1 1 per day per 3 levels as a special ability. Lvl 5: Can cast summon animal 2 1 per day, per 5 levels as a special ability. +1 hit, +2 damage, +1/2 attack. Lvl 10: Can cast summon Animal 3, 1 per day per 10 levels. Gains shapeshifting ability as a regular druid, 1/day.
The Skald and Bard Song would work similar to stealth. At will, but requires no enemy in LoS of the bard (In pnp you can't reapply the song in mid-battle, but if your forces withdraw from the direct fighting (i.e. the Bard is far enough away he can't see the enemy), then the song can be reapplied), but has a 1 round cast time before it is applied. The Bard song, as per PnP, allows you to select which effect you want the Bard song to apply (Bard songs with different effects stack, but same effects do not). The Skald song on the other hand simply gains more abilities as the skald progresses (technically it works the same as the bard song, but for every 3 Skald levels you can select an additional effect per song..so..it's easier to just use the above), Skald song never stacks with itself, the most powerful one is always the highest used. Unlike current, this allows the Bard/Skald to join the fray while still applying their buff to allies as per PnP, especially at higher levels when the song is more likely to last the entire battle with a single use.
The Counter songs, Tell Joke, Taunt, and Inspire allies would be the same as the current Bard Song, you just toggle it, and the effect occurs each round, but requires your full attention to do so so you couldn't attack or cast spells while maintaining the buff.
karpasz
Member Posts: 74
Comments
Also the 2nd edition warlock is garbage....they use the spell point system, and choose their known spells from a limited list of Arcane and druid spells.....(they get limited known spells per spell level like a sorcerer but use spell points kind of like a psionics for casting which would be a huge headache I'm sure to implement)
Seems legit!
But not all at once. They get a limited number of spells they can know like a sorcerer does, but cast them using the spell point method (though it can be converted to work like a sorcerer with a little tinkering)
I should also say it would almost be a little superfluous. There are a ton of summoning spells already in the game, including a Familiar mechanic. There's almost no way to make the kind of warlock you're describing stand out without completely breaking the game and making them OP.
They're ok....but they're really boring till you get Fell Flight (just blasting enemies and summoning swarms bats and insects to obliterate the enemies while everyone glares at you for taking all the challenge out of the encounter or using your at-will invisibility or dimension doors to get the hell out of Dodge when things go south)..which is basically THE most important invocation they get...I've yet to see a single warlock not take it immediately.
They're a bit underwhelming at epic levels though cause their Epic Invocations require specific invocations and unless you drop feats on extra invocations you'll rarely have enough for one or two without gimping yourself (I usually spend most of my feats on item crafting when I play a warlock since they can craft almost anything), and while they're pretty awesome on a personal level, they don't really bring the umph that epic level spellcasting for the other casters does. Still At-will teleport without error, planeshifting, truesight, double eldritch blasts with 2 blast mods each, tongues, perfect double speed flight, the ability to use shadow conjuration/invocation/shades at will to duplicate any mage spell up to 7th level (but with reduced effect).
Not sure if Warlocks in 2e are/were alignment-restricted, but I'd prefer a new class that isn't. That way, if a new NPC has that class, I wouldn't be unbalancing my party by rolling a PC of the same class.
If there is a new Cleric kit, I'd lay safe odds on it being built as another Forgotten Realms specialty priesthood -- no shortage of material to draw on there.
The only issue I would have with adding the Gallant class is that it seems a little redundant; that is, of the three kits currently available to Bards in BG/BG2, the Blade already has the "good at fighting" thing covered. I think there are some far better choices for appropriation from the Bard Handbook that expand the different flavors of the class:
•Gypsy-Bard: This kit would gain some of the listed semi-druidic spell-like powers, with a secondary specialty in divination magics
•Loremaster: Could be appropriated to be a magic-focused bard kit
•Meistersinger: Could be given new bard songs that charm and summon animals (a neat thing to give the bard, since apart from the Conjurer specialist there aren't really any classes in BG devoted to summoning)
•Thespian/Charlatan: Here, either name could be used and applied to the same concept, lifted from the Final Fantasy series: a bard kit whose focus is mimicking enemy abilities. (not even sure if that would be possible within the game's existing framework, but it would be an interesting twist)
All Bards - Can place up to 3 points in two weapon fighting
Enhanced Bard song doesn't alter how Bard or Skald Song works, just the bonus given.
Plain Bard - Same as now except
Bard Song- (Songs with different effects stack, all versions stack with Skald Song)
Choose one Effect:
+2 Morale or
+1 Hit or
+1 Saves
1 round cast time, Range 10ft/level, lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/level, cannot be used in LoS of an enemy.
Counter Song - Forces a save vs spell on allies, if successful, dispel any harmful charm/enchantment spells on the ally. Usable any time.
Blade -
No wands, no scrolls (but can still learn spells), no song, cannot use ranged weapons (except Darts, throwing daggers or throwing axes)
-5% chance to learn spells.
(Weapon Display and both spins gain uses at the same rate)
Weapon display (1 round cast, +1 hit allies/-1 hit enemies for 1 round/level, 30 ft radius)
Defensive Spin (Works the same as now, but also forces a save vs death or take damage to attackers in melee equal to half the Blades level)
Offensive Spin (1 round cast, Next hit causes Fear for 5 rounds, no save)
Can make called shots at the same progression as an archer, using hurled weapons
Starts with *** Two Weapon style (0 MH/-2 OH) for free at creation (as per PnP)
(Selects HLA from the warrior pool)
Skald-
Can wear up to regular platemail or any shield
+1 hit/damage passive
(Cannot learn HLA Traps)
Skald Song- Effects are cumulative (Does not stack with itself)
lvl 1 - +1 hit
lvl 3 - +1 damage
lvl 6 - +1 Saves
lvl 9 - + 1 bonus Hp/level
lvl 12 - +1 morale per 6/levels
lvl 15 - -1 AC
1 round cast time, Song lasts 3 rounds +1/level, Range 10ft/level, cannot be used in LOS of an enemy.
Counter Song - Forces a save vs spell on allies, if successful, dispel any charm/enchantment spells on the ally. Usable anytime.
-25% Chance to learn spells. Caster level -1, cannot cast from scrolls.
Jester -
Cannot Wear armor above studded leather, except elven chain.
Can only become proficient in daggers, short swords, clubs, slings, darts, quarterstaff
(Cannot learn Enhanced Bard Song)
Constant +1 luck bonus, +1 Bonus to AC, +15 Pickpockets
Immune to confusion, adds +1 saves/level vs charm/enchantment spells.
Taunt - 30ft range, per round Enemies must save vs spells at -1/3 levels, or be forced to attack the jester for 1 round. (Mindless Undead or similar mindless creatures are immune, as are creatures with higher then 18 intelligence). Usable any time.
Tell Joke - Force a save vs spells per round on allies, if successful dispel fear or confusion effects on the ally. Usable any time.
Gallant-
Cannot use wands or scrolls (can still learn spells from them)
Cannot use ranged weapons
Cannot be Evil
-50 pickpockets
Gallant's who violate the Gallant's Code (less then 10 rep) permanently lose all special abilities and benefits aside from weapon and armor use but gain +50 Pickpockets.
Can wear any armor, helm or shield usable by warriors.
Can specialize in 1 medium weapon.
Gains an additional +1 HP per level, on top of other bonuses
Gains constant +1 luck bonus.
Immune to Fear
Inspire Courage - Their song gives a +4 to saves vs fear and +2 Morale. Forces a save vs spells on allies each round. If successful, it dispels any fear effects on allies. Usable any time.
Can use Avoid Death 1 per day.
Can cast a special Charm Person, 1/day per 10 levels. Save is made at -1 per 3/levels if the targets gender is opposite the gallant's, or no bonus for the same.
(Selects HLA from the warrior pool)
Meistersinger-
Cannot wear armor greater then leather (except elven chain).
Cannot sing
Cannot use 2handed weapons, aside from quarterstaves.
Lore skill is only 50% of normal.
-10 Pickpockets, -10% chance to learn spells.
Must be Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral (Due to limitations of the Find Familiar spell).
(Cannot learn UAI or enhanced Bard song)
(The Meistersinger's song calls permanent animal companions to him, replaced by the summon spells below)
lvl 1: Can Cast Find Familiar as a special ability, can cast charm animal 1/day per level. Can cast Sanctuary 1/day, gains additional uses at 10, 20, 30, 40.
lvl 3: Can Cast summon Animal 1 1 per day per 3 levels as a special ability.
Lvl 5: Can cast summon animal 2 1 per day, per 5 levels as a special ability. +1 hit, +2 damage, +1/2 attack.
Lvl 10: Can cast summon Animal 3, 1 per day per 10 levels. Gains shapeshifting ability as a regular druid, 1/day.
The Skald and Bard Song would work similar to stealth. At will, but requires no enemy in LoS of the bard (In pnp you can't reapply the song in mid-battle, but if your forces withdraw from the direct fighting (i.e. the Bard is far enough away he can't see the enemy), then the song can be reapplied), but has a 1 round cast time before it is applied. The Bard song, as per PnP, allows you to select which effect you want the Bard song to apply (Bard songs with different effects stack, but same effects do not). The Skald song on the other hand simply gains more abilities as the skald progresses (technically it works the same as the bard song, but for every 3 Skald levels you can select an additional effect per song..so..it's easier to just use the above), Skald song never stacks with itself, the most powerful one is always the highest used. Unlike current, this allows the Bard/Skald to join the fray while still applying their buff to allies as per PnP, especially at higher levels when the song is more likely to last the entire battle with a single use.
The Counter songs, Tell Joke, Taunt, and Inspire allies would be the same as the current Bard Song, you just toggle it, and the effect occurs each round, but requires your full attention to do so so you couldn't attack or cast spells while maintaining the buff.