How effective backstabber is a mage/thief?

szb

Asking because I'm starting a gnome illusionist/thief, and can't decide how much strenght should I give him.
If backstabbing is effective I'll give him 18 strenght for the extra damage/thac0, else I'll increase charisma to 18 instead for the extra quest rewards and shop prices + rp experience (high charisma works well with the illusionist/thief image I have in my head).

Backstabbing:
Pro:
-> invisibility spells allow easy and repeated backstabbing
Con:
-> low thac0 in melee means he'll probably miss often, even when striking from shadows.
-> low hp and no armor means getting in melee might not be a good idea
-> there are probably better uses for lvl 2 spells then invisibilty?

Right now I'm leaning towards charisma, what do you think?

Chow

It doesn't sound like a too viable thing to do. By late game, the hiding skill of a backstabbing-focused thief allows him to sneak around easily enough anyway: the only advantage of an Invisibility spell ends up being that you can do it with someone watching, but that someone could just stab you and ruin the spell. And indeed, you don't hit very well.

Wanting to stab things, I'd go either assassin or fighter/thief.

Alsn

Don't listen to Chow. Mislead(level 6 spell, so not until bg2) is about the most powerful backstab tool in the entire series(although, I usually impose some house rules when I use it such as "no hiding the copy", cause it can be super cheap if you want it to be). Mage/thief is amazing at backstabbing. For bg1 though, you won't reach x4 backstab multiplier as a multiclass due to the XP cap, so that's something to consider.

Gnome illusionist/thief is optimal(extra spells, and all the invisibility spells are illusion so no risk of not being able to learn anything vital for the build).

The_New_Romance

I wouldn't do that. Fighter/thieves are potent backstabbers, just as @Chow mentioned. Thief/mages are more a support/ranged attack thing. They can open locks and disable traps, but they're best suited to service behind the frontline.

So, to answer your question, rather give him CHA than STR. He should have enough of the latter to be able to carry his equipment and inventory, but that's about enough.

elminster

There are lots of NPC's that you can stick on the task of being the charming party leader. Stick with strength over charisma.

Pantalion

If it's helpful, my Elven Thief/Mage was actually rocking a pretty awesome THAC0 with the Bracers of Archery, a Dex of 20 and the +2 Short Bow. Remember you can backstab with Melf's Meteors too, which are something like +5 to hit.

Also worth bearing in mind that you'll be wearing a Robe, so there's absolutely nothing stopping you from maxing out Move Silently and Hide in the Shadows and spending your level 2 spell slots on Knock instead.

szb

Thanks everyone, good responses.

FrozenCells

I'm playing a Mage/Thief in BG:EE, chapter 5. Can backstab just fine. It's only really in BG2 that the thac0 drop starts to hurt a lot but then you get mislead etc. anyway so...

Oxford_Guy

Btw you can wear elven chain and both cast spells and use your thieving abilities whilst wearing it (as with all robes too, of course), though there is a small penalty to some thieving skills

szb

Oxford_Guy said:

Btw you can wear elven chain and both cast spells and use your thieving abilities whilst wearing it (as with all robes too, of course), though there is a small penalty to some thieving skills

Nice. Does it drop correcly now? I didn't try it since the last patch.

Oxford_Guy

szb said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Btw you can wear elven chain and both cast spells and use your thieving abilities whilst wearing it (as with all robes too, of course), though there is a small penalty to some thieving skills

Nice. Does it drop correcly now? I didn't try it since the last patch.

I don't think so, I CLUA-ed it in after doing the encounter where it's meant to drop. For an evil fighter/mage it's a godsend, as you can't get the evil Robes of Archmagi until very late. Before the elven chain was put in the game, I had to rely on the Shield Amulet for evil fighter/mages (and bards), but that could get expensive to recharge.

Oxford_Guy

elminster said:

There are lots of NPC's that you can stick on the task of being the charming party leader. Stick with strength over charisma.

^ This

ZanathKariashi

Polymorph Self: Ogre + invisibility ring/high stealth skill + x3 BS = ~100 damage, non-crit. Or more if you drink a str potion after transforming. Now add x5 BS and mislead in the sequel.

doomdoomdoom

ZanathKariashi said:

Polymorph Self: Ogre + invisibility ring/high stealth skill + x3 BS = ~100 damage, non-crit. Or more if you drink a str potion after transforming. Now add x5 BS and mislead in the sequel.

How exactly are you rolling 30+ dmg non-crit no backstab? (Let alone the fact that you can backstab with a morningstar seems more like a bug).
You get +6 dmg from ogre's 18/00 STR (which btw isn't multiplied by backstab). And the rest of the damage comes from that mundane morning star, 2-8. So that's ~14 dmg tops.
And 8*3+6 = 30 dmg at best with a x3 backstab.

Cheesebelly

Cleric/Thieves can reach harsher backstabs in BG1, especially Half-Orcs, which can do 100+ damage with ease by just using the Staff +3. With the Staff Mace +2 or Staff of Striking, one-hitting Sarevok is easy.

You can also kill Drizzt easily that way :P

Edit : Also, @ZanathKariashi : thief/mages can't drink strength potions. Only Warrior classes can sadly.

doomdoomdoom

@Cheesebelly easy if you reload until you actually land that hit, which is 10% at best

Oxford_Guy

doomdoomdoom said:

ZanathKariashi said:

Polymorph Self: Ogre + invisibility ring/high stealth skill + x3 BS = ~100 damage, non-crit. Or more if you drink a str potion after transforming. Now add x5 BS and mislead in the sequel.

How exactly are you rolling 30+ dmg non-crit no backstab? (Let alone the fact that you can backstab with a morningstar seems more like a bug).
You get +6 dmg from ogre's 18/00 STR (which btw isn't multiplied by backstab). And the rest of the damage comes from that mundane morning star, 2-8. So that's ~14 dmg tops.
And 8*3+6 = 30 dmg at best with a x3 backstab.

Can you really backstab when poly-morphed into an ogre, even though it wields a morning star?

doomdoomdoom

Oxford_Guy said:

Can you really backstab when poly-morphed into an ogre, even though it wields a morning star?

Yea, seems so. Just tried it with maxed out multiclass T/M trying to stab Firebead in Candlekeep. But the damage is as puny as I expected, nowhere near the numbers the guy claimed.

Cheesebelly

@doomdoomdoom : not necessarily. Through Holy Power you get up to 7 THAC0 bonus. A bit of good old strength with Draw Upon Holy Might, Chant bonus to hit and if you feel like it the +4 bonus to hit from a sneak attack... I am pretty sure I landed 3/4 hits and killed Drizzt

@Oxford_Guy : I'm not sure, but I believe weapons granted by polymorphs work rather uniquely. Never tried the Ogre Form, but I do know that from Shapechange, Mindflayer and Adamantite golem can backstab (the latter being the most damaging weapon in the game if I might add)

Vindsval

doomdoomdoom said:

ZanathKariashi said:

Polymorph Self: Ogre + invisibility ring/high stealth skill + x3 BS = ~100 damage, non-crit. Or more if you drink a str potion after transforming. Now add x5 BS and mislead in the sequel.

How exactly are you rolling 30+ dmg non-crit no backstab? (Let alone the fact that you can backstab with a morningstar seems more like a bug).
You get +6 dmg from ogre's 18/00 STR (which btw isn't multiplied by backstab). And the rest of the damage comes from that mundane morning star, 2-8. So that's ~14 dmg tops.
And 8*3+6 = 30 dmg at best with a x3 backstab.

Cause it's NOT a morningstar. It 's a special weapon that can strike very hard, usable by thiefs, so it can backstab, as nearly all of special weapons from spells (flame blade, black blade of disaster...). In bg2, just try the iron golem form

Dunno the exact damage, but righteous might or ki strike with ogre form does indeed strike in the range of 40 damage, depending on your strenght score.

reedmilfam

I've had awful luck with thieves in combat, making backstabs very unreliable for me. It essentially forces me to leave rogues as ranged combatants.

bigdogchris

Fighter/Thieves are awesome in BG. Higher HP and THAC0 really helps.

doomdoomdoom

Vindsval said:

Cause it's NOT a morningstar. It 's a special weapon that can strike very hard, usable by thiefs, so it can backstab, as nearly all of special weapons from spells (flame blade, black blade of disaster...). In bg2, just try the iron golem form

Dunno the exact damage, but righteous might or ki strike with ogre form does indeed strike in the range of 40 damage, depending on your strenght score.

It is a friggin unechanted morningstar. Nothing special about it.
When you polymorph into the ogre, it says 8-14 dmg on char screen. 2d4 + 6 (STR bonus) as it should be.
That is in BG1EE at least.
Don't know how iron golem is relevant to this, different creature, different fist weapon, different STR. And BG2. I know high level transforms are more powerful.

And you wield all shape change weapons as if you are proficient with them, no bonuses. Meaning that when you get a nice enchanted weapon, and have the means to get your STR above 18/00 it doesn't even make any sense to use that form anymore.

Vindsval

Indeed

I also tested this in BGEE, it doesn't work.
Quite sure it worked in the past. (or mod, bug, false memory...)

Oxford_Guy

reedmilfam said:

I've had awful luck with thieves in combat, making backstabs very unreliable for me. It essentially forces me to leave rogues as ranged combatants.

Are you doing it right? i.e. getting close behind the enemy whist stealthed and using a reasonably fast thief-only weapon? No one is consistently unlucky unless you think you're cursed somehow! :-)

BTW one of the reasons I like elves for thieves (at least for pure class thieves) is the extra +1 THAC0 they get with *all* swords and bows (well, not crossbows), every little helps, as do the gauntlets of weapon expertise.

ZanathKariashi

Hmm...seems they changed the weapon. In BG1 and BG2, it's a large-sized ogre berserker club+3 (4d6+3 damage). And since it's a club, it can be used for backstab...if you're an Ogre Skulker...which you basically are.

ZanathKariashi

Hmmm....that's pretty weird. In BG1, thieves can use all the str potions....And I've always used them on Imeon so it's not misremembering...and I don't use mods at all for vanilla BG.

That's probably something they changed in BG2...they did try their best to nerf the hell out of all the BS tricks in BG1.

elminster

ZanathKariashi said:

Hmmm....that's pretty weird. In BG1, thieves can use all the str potions....And I've always used them on Imeon so it's not misremembering...and I don't use mods at all for vanilla BG.

That's probably something they changed in BG2...they did try their best to nerf the hell out of all the BS tricks in BG1.

Just checked in BG1. My charname can't use the strength potions (she is a thief). Maybe it was a ToTSC change.