If Obsidian wanted to make Baldur's Gate 3 "the way Bethesda made Fallout 3," I'm really happy that the attempt fell through. Fallout 3 wasn't a horrible game(wasn't a great one either), but if someone says "hey, let's make a sequel to a classic turn-based isometric RPG," Oblivion With Guns isn't the direction I would expect them to go.
Baldur's Gate is a party focused real-time with pause RPG that emulates(to a certain degree) the D&D ruleset of its time. If/when BG3 ever becomes a reality, it had better be the same. I can bend on the 3D thing since BG was only 2D because of how crappy 3D was at the time, but the other aspects are vital parts of Baldur's Gate's identity.
When they talk about "the way Bethesda made Fallout 3," they're referring to budget, audio/visual, that sort of thing. The kind of AAA title the series deserves. They don't necessarily mean 'copy everything that fallout 3 did and plug it into baldur's gate' that's just silly.
When they talk about "the way Bethesda made Fallout 3," they're referring to budget, audio/visual, that sort of thing. The kind of AAA title the series deserves. They don't necessarily mean 'copy everything that fallout 3 did and plug it into baldur's gate' that's just silly.
He's not even talking about what their studio would do if they made BG3. He meant that if Beamdog do get the chance to make BG3, it won't be "the way that Bethesda made Fallout 3". And you're exactly right; no matter your opinion about Fallout 3, it was a massive AAA title that sold incredibly well. Beamdog can't possibly hope to pour as much money into a possible BG3 as Bethesda did into FO3.
Personally, I'd have been overjoyed if Obsidian had been given the green light to make BG3. In my opinion, they have the best writers in the industry right now, and although their games are generally buggy on release, they usually fix them up pretty quickly. I'm withholding my opinion on Beamdog's capabilities to make the sequel until I see more of their additional content for the original two games.
WotC will not sign off on a "Baldur's Gate 3" unless it is set in 4th edition Forgotten Realms and uses the 4th edition D&D ruleset. (Unless development carries into the "D&D Next" release era, in which case substitute '5' wherever '4' appears.)
FO3 was actually Bethesda - New Vegas was Obsidian. But unlike the latter, FO3 didn't really have a decent story. I mean, don't get me wrong, Bethesda is awesome but I don't understand the hype of their games. I mean, put "Bethesda" on the box and it'll be automatically 10/10 (same with Rockstar actually). Storywise, Bethesda games are completely horrible, and you can see that kind of chasm when New Vegas was released - Bethesda engine game, with writings of Obsidian : great character development, awesome setting with a not-so-typical story.
I mean, I know it's subjective but really - Bethesda's writing isn't THAT good...
NWN 2 isn't a disaster. You who said that, are an idiot using hyperbole and SUBJECTIVE opinion to spew your inaccurate and inane drivel.
Honestly.
If you are going to criticise something, at least criticise it right!
Unfortunately, you are incorrect here. The NWN Community did a complete breakdown on the two (I participated in that as well) on the Legacy forums (now gone, thanks EA *bleh* ).
NWN2 wins out with the OCs (yes, there are problems in all the OCs, but as Bioware was unable to actually finish the first OC as planned, the second was much too short, and the third was pretty well done, that gives NWN2 a decisive edge here).
When it comes to Playability out-of-the-box, ease of use (toolset, multiplayer, etc), different plattform compatibility, Custom Content, etc, etc, etc, NWN slams NWN2 hands-down.
This is why NWN wins out over NWN2, and why therefore, NWN2 is a total disaster - it did not pick up where NWN left off and take it further. Instead, Obsidian tried to "re-invent the wheel", so to speak, and failed miserably.
Is this Obsidian's fault? Partially. They bit off more than they could chew, admitted it publically, and had to chop large portions of what was planned out, use tools (like Granny) that no-one can afford or has a conversion program for, etc, etc. Unfortunately, the chopped out parts never really made it back in (conversion to Consoles, for example). Obviously Atari/Hasbro were the others at fault here. This meant that much of the multi-plattform NWN goodness also fell along the wayside, which basically alienated a rather large portion of the NWN CCCers (custom content creators). That, in turn, basically spelled doom for CC for NWN2 (when compared to that which is available for NWN).
Which Custom Content Mods for NWN are good? Go take a look on the NWN forums for your answer. There are lists longer than I care to post here. One that stands out is the Aielund saga. A Dance with Rogues is very, very good. And on, and on, and on...do your own research. Heck, Wyvern Crown of Cormyr is better than anything officially released for NWN2, including MotB. Great, immersive storyline, believable characters, ridable horses, etc.
Hey! Let us talk about animations *giggle* No, better not. NWN beats NWN2 hands down in animations (especially custom animations). Nothing breaks my immersion more than this - especially the slide-over-the-ground animation that all NWN2 characters suffer from. This is from a poorly done synchronization effect.
Aribeth vs Khelgar??!! Oh gods no...just...no.
You want to seriously consider romancing Khelgar here??!! I need some emoticons here...at least one gets the chance to redeem Aribeth in hell in HotU. And in some custom content...well, that just goes further.
Let me see, a hawt-looking half-elf Paladin that falls...yummy. A dwarf that cannot decide to be a brawler or not...bleh. Where is the hawtness, do say?
Please point out the "hawt babe" in NWN2 - and please do not say Qara, Neeshka, or Elanee, not Shandra, not Kaelyn, certainly not Zhjaeve or Safiya.
The only one who could be said to be hawt was not even possible to get as a companion was Torio! Now she was hawt! Too bad one could not get her as a companion and romance her! Why wasn't she available in MotB?
Fleshed out, Torio could have been as hawt as Aribeth. Alas, such was not to be. Imagine getting to rescue Torio, say, from the Wall!!! W00t! Or meeting her standing in line in the City of Death, and getting to recruit her.
Also, the give command to companion, switch to another, and that former command "disappears" bug is really, REALLY annoying! This basically means turning off all AI, and only giving a simple, single command instead of blocks of them, since otherwise they disappear often from the queue without notice or reason.
Now, on the surface, the multi-party system of NWN2 is better than the one character with AI controlled henchmen of NWN.
However, as revealed above, the many bugs results in much hair-pulling, screaming, and yeah, spoils immersion because one is constantly fighting the bugs...bleh, instead of concentrating on the game.
I choose to use the OHS (custom content) for NWN (allows for Companions in NWN). Then I don't have these problems.
Of all the NWN2 OCs, I preferred SoZ. Now that was a nice sandbox type of adventure! If not for the bugs as outlined above, I would have replayed it indefinitely.
Now I play NWN (a heavily moddified version, of my own doing, on a PW created SP Mod, which has an incredibly deep storyline combined with all that PW goodness). Oh, and BG:EE at the moment.
What would be fantastic is if Beamdog redoes NWN!! Looking forwards to that...NWN:EE ftw!!!!
@WebShaman Isn't it a bit unfair to judge the substance of a character through "hawt"-ness (mostly the looks judging by your post) alone? Don't get me wrong, I do like Aribeth, I really do. But it's just not about the romance options when the substance of the characters are concerned...personally, I don't fancy these games to be a romance sim; a big bonus, I admit, but not the decisive factor. Khelgar and Ammon Jerro are actually pretty fleshed out characters, and they don't have to be romanceable to be so. In my book, they are better than Aribeth. Just think of Irenicus, is he romanceable? Is he good-looking? If I remember correctly, he's stitched up everywhere. But he is considered by many to be the most badass (and likeable) antagonist ever. Nonetheless, I won't take away credit out of the NWN; it is still one of my most loved games ever esp with PRC pack. And between NWN-2 and 1, it's about a stalemate for me. But perhaps if I really have to choose one, I'd give a little edge for NWN-2 for the character content and story (the most important criteria for me).
The point is, it's just not about romance. I have to admit though...as a romance option, I wish they could have had someone like Aribeth. Out of all the female companions in NWN-2, romance options for Qara and Kaelyn could have been likeable, at least compared to Elanee. But surprisingly, they were not included.
@ZanathKariashi, unsurprisingly I disagree with just about everything you said
1.While some of the VA in NWN2 was really bad (that horrible romancable elf comes to mind), most of it was great and it does help immersion
2.I liked the classes and the way they were implemented. However I don't play PnP so that may have something to do with it
3.NWN2 was meant to be a game that comes with a toolset, not a toolset that comes with a built in demo campaign like NWN. That's the difference and as far as the game goes, it's NWN2 that is better
4.NWN2 had some issues with the camera but other than that I can't see what's wrong with the interface
Bottom line is that it comes down to priorities. If it's the story, party interaction and party management that's important for you, NWN2 is easily the better game. If you are looking to build your own content, NWN wins the cake. But then again if it's the latter, why don't you just grab a lego or Minecraft?
I'll just disagree. Party management is just as horrible as it was in NWN1, well SoU, the only difference is that you can have more people to go get themselves killed but do get to steer their development to a greater degree, for what little it helped. And the interaction is garbage, I can't stand reading most of that crap. HotU had superior party interaction by a long shot. Being able take control of them was an improvement....but again, for every 1 thing NWN2 did well, it F'd like 10 more things up.
The radial menu from NWN 1, was incredibly smooth and easy to use, and the lower bar allowed for 36 buttons worth of easy access for frequently used or emergency abilities...NWN2 is a clunky mess by comparison. Also the inventory is way more annoying to use cause everything is a tiny little square, vs being able to spot at a glance what you're looking for. NWN2 had a decent camera on release (on par with NWN1, so...not great but ok)...it was about the only thing that wasn't crap pre-patch, but MotB and especially SoZ screwed it up so badly it wasn't funny.
And that AWFUL no death crap from NWN2 just killed it for me. I despised NWN1 for basically that same garbage (though they at least penalized you some gold and xp for it). SoU and HotU handled it best. SoU you lost your noob protection after chapter 1, and HotU your limited revival chances were part of the plot.
And the crafting...ugh..the crafting...I hate them so much. Even the horrible system aside, they fact they screwed up warlocks, THE best magical crafters of any class in that game, really gets on my nerves. A large part of the warlock's strength is that they can craft magic items to augment their abilities. It took till MotB to even give the ability they should've had on day 1, but because of how stupid the system is they can still only craft a tiny handful of the things they should be capable of.
It gives me a headache just trying to quantify everything retarded about the system. Especially since they could've just ripped off the PRC's crafting system from NWN1....it would've been perfect.
[quote]I've known Trent forever, and so I think that he gets it, and I think he's into it, and so I think he could do it," Urquhart said. "I dunno if they have a studio that can make Baldur's Gate 3 the way that Bethesda made Fallout 3. They could make Baldur's Gate 3 like we're doing Project Eternity, but I don't think they could move it in that direction."[/quote]
Making FO3 out of BG1-2? No, please. Ruining Fallout series with it's action-RPG 3rd instalment was more than enough. BG just does not deserve that fate.
While your opinion is not completely irrelevant, and you actually do have some point with your subjective opinions there. You completely undermine yourself by your use of hyperbole to underscore your subjective view point.
While your opinion is not completely irrelevant, and you actually do have some point with your subjective opinions there. You completely undermine yourself by your use of hyperbole to underscore your subjective view point.
Not trying to be rude saying that btw.
Hmmm...while everything to do with "like" and "dislike" is subjective, presenting facts is not.
I presented facts to back up most of my points - did you even read the link? Mods, I provided facts (Aielund Saga, A Dance with Rogues, WCoC), and of course I did expouse abit on the different party controls of both games.
The fact that NWN runs on more platforms than NWN2 is not contested (and thus, those of NWN who use those platforms cannot run NWN2).
NWN2 does use Granny, it is very expensive and there is no compatible plug-in for it.
Urquhart did admit that parts of NWN2 did land on the cutting floor publically, especially the import to consoles (the main reason why NWN2 was not Open GL based) and Ridable Horses, for example. There are others (see the link that I posted) - like being able to import your character from NWN to NWN2, or being able to load up an area from NWN in NWN2.
What more in the way of facts do you wish for me to "trot out" so that you can still maintain it is all "subjective" and "opinion"?
If I weight the facts, as we did in that NWN debate on NWN2, NWN comes out the winner. Obviously, there will be those who subjectively like one more than the other - which is perfectly fine IMHO. Or who like one or the other for a specific reason lacking in the other - also fine IMHO.
But weighting everything together and getting a consensus is far from a "subjective opinion".
As I said, all things considered, NWN is the better game.
There is also something that needs correcting - the NWN OC was NOT just an example of what the toolset could do. Bioware did release the notes to the NWN Community about how the NWN OC was supposed to be, but due to the legal problems involving IP eating up necessary developement time, it got dropped, leaving that which we got, instead. I think it is somewhere on The Vault, but I am not sure.
TBH, I do not consider whether a game has a "hawt" or not romance-able character to be important (though it does seem to help sales). I just do not see Aribeth being able to be compared to Khelgar. Aribeth is a huge part of NWN, whereas Khelgar is not a huge part of NWN2 (OC wise). Where Khelgar is a companion in the first OC (and one that one has to take, really irritated me), Aribeth is not, though one has more interactions with Aribeth in the OC as with any henchie, really.
In HotU, Aribeth has a chance of becoming a henchie, and of being saved, so to speak.
I personally did not like Khelgar, but that is my subjective opinion here. Ammon Jerro was a much better character IMHO. Much more mature, and much more "realistic", if one can even mention such in a fantasy game.
From my point of view, the infinity engine already does all of the things necessary to drive 1000's of hours of new content and revenue for whoever undertakes the content creation process. All of my friends who played through the originals with me also share this point of view. If fans can make hours of immersive content and mods that have provided hours of added life to this engine (Shadows over Sabour, Classic Adventures, and all the great mods at Spellhold Studios) then a professional organisation with access to the original source code, comments, blueprints et al., should be capable of cranking out new, polished content much easier than fans who did it in their spare time without the additional resources and information Overhaul should have access to.
I am old enough to own the original edition of The Dungeon Masters Guide, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods and have spend 100's of dollars on P&P modules, miniatures, etc.... I would HAPPILY spend more money on content for the Infinity engine...As would all my friends. The Infinity Engine handles the job of Dungeon Master just fine from my old-school perspective. It, for me, is close to the ideal way to play a game genre that has brought me so many hours of entertainment for many decades.
In fact...New content for the infinity engine has been a constant conversation between myself and my friends ever since we completed the first iteration of this wonderful game....constant....We always dreamt of the old pen and paper modules we never got to play being ported to the screen via Infinity Engine.
So, all this talk about BG3 and debating debating the mechanics of various similar interfaces seems a bit overwrought to me when the solution has been there all along....the engine...Don't worry about reinventing the wheel, just grease the wheel you already have and put some new tires on it it every now and then....I WILL GIVE YOU MONEY.
However, if BG 3 is going to be a thing, I want it to be classic BG-style. Not 3D or anything like the NWN series was. Those titles are fine, but then they aren't really BG.
@egalor_original: I think if BG3 gets made, period, we're sure to see the departure of the Infinity Engine. That's practically a necessity at this point.
For years (decades?) I've thought that the best thing that could happen to RPGs would be a new version of the Infinity Engine. An Infinity Squared engine? Something newer and easier to work with: a game engine capable of making games like Shadows of Amn and Planescape Torment--a game engine to be licensed out to as many developers as possible.
Hell, rather than hiring incompetent developers to make shoddy D&D games, Wizards of the Coast (or whoever) ought to just finance a really robust RPG-making utility in the vein of the Infinity Engine, and focus more on making it user-friendly so it could rely on user-created content, or license it out to other developers to make larger games, and/or produce smaller, episodic games.
...
And on the subject of BG3, I'm honestly glad that none of the sequel projects have gotten off the ground.I don't like--at all--this notion that the third game should be completely divorced from the previous two. The "Black Hand" (or whatever) version of BG3 sounded particularly awful, as it was a "Baldur's Gate 3" in name, but in terms of story would have been more a sequel to Icewind Dale.
@egalor_original PRECISELY!!! and a total step in the wrong direction IMO. Do you think Sir Billy Bob had ANY budget when he skillfully and creatively scripted the Classic Adventures overhaul mod?!!
Anyone pursuing the big budget corporate mindset of a totally new flashy 3d masterbatron of a game is ignorant enough to completely miss what we love about this game....besides...simply creating content for an engine that we have already would be much easier and in the long haul much more lucrative and sustainable.
Unfortunately, if a game does not instantly deliver mucho dinero, then it is not considered a success. I personally would love to see an Infinity Engine Squared, with a completely open toolset - what a resource! Unfortunately, due to IP issues, we will probably never see such a thing for any type of D&D IP.
Some of you people are confused. Urquhart didn't mean that they wanted make Baldur's Gate III as the type of game that Fallout 3 was done by Bethesda. ""I dunno if they have a studio that can make Baldur's Gate 3 the way that Bethesda made Fallout" as in, a studio that has LOTS OF MONEY. They wanted to make Baldur's Gate III with LOTS OF MONEY like Fallout 3 was done by Bethesda - not as an first-person view type RPG.
I don't actually care whether it's D&D ruleset or even universe. One could take any ruleset available out there and set everything in any universe of his or her choosing. It's the story, approach to graphics and gameplay (i.e. the quality) that matter me most. Simply sticking to D&D IP and naming a game "BG3" just won't guarantee the quality.
@vonVince Who knows what he meant...the article never said precisely. The (rash or not) assumption is that the size of the budget he was asking for was inline with the other studios mentioned and consequently inferred a similar direction as well as budget.
I believe this presumed direction would be a mistake. The game engine we love exists already without the need for a single refinement or addition, Infinity is the improved animated version of gaming with the same perspective I would get if I were to unbox all my pewter figurines and place them on my numerous paper maps painted cardboard partitions. Except, it does it much faster, cleaner and the dice never roll off the table :-)
The fact that Urquhart mentioned Fallout 3 is just an example of a game that had a good budget; and such a budget is something they would have wanted for their game's development. That doesn't mean that they were going for a game akin to Fallout 3. That's just downright closed mindedness towards Obsidian.
With all its faults NWN2 was still vastly superior to the mess that was the original The same applies to the KotOR games
Yeah I have to agree and after I found out, that Black Isle of which the most important members left to Obsidian (and partly Trokia in between) after it was closed and Bioware are different companies I came to the conclusion that the only great games done by them up to the point where they really could show their strength with cinematic games with Mass Effect where The Baldurs Gate games which where supervised by Black Isle and Jade Empire.
Black Isle/Obsidian where better at both story and creating interesting challenging fights while Bioware is better at presentation of the story and deciding what to fix on a tight shedule before release.
Because lets be honest both companies released some horribly bugged games but Bioware is better at fixing important or more obvious stuff first and cutting unfinished side quests out completely.
EDIT: I wonder why anyone still wants a BG3 after TOB finished the Bhaalspawn story. Second edition rules is pretty much impossible because of Hasbro, the story is finished so the only thing left would be the location Baldurs Gate which I would say is a rather boring region of the Forgotten Realms compared to others.
A game that has D&D setting focused on party control with a good story and tactical combat would be great but why Baldurs Gate 3 and not anything else in a D&D setting?
Comments
Fallout 3 was awesome.
And so were the Knights of the Old Republic games.
But why are we talking about all of this??
What matters here is that BALDUR'S GATE 3 NEEDS TO HAPPEN!
Originaly posted by @Lemernis in the other thread i linked^
Personally, I'd have been overjoyed if Obsidian had been given the green light to make BG3. In my opinion, they have the best writers in the industry right now, and although their games are generally buggy on release, they usually fix them up pretty quickly. I'm withholding my opinion on Beamdog's capabilities to make the sequel until I see more of their additional content for the original two games.
Carry on!
I mean, don't get me wrong, Bethesda is awesome but I don't understand the hype of their games. I mean, put "Bethesda" on the box and it'll be automatically 10/10 (same with Rockstar actually). Storywise, Bethesda games are completely horrible, and you can see that kind of chasm when New Vegas was released - Bethesda engine game, with writings of Obsidian : great character development, awesome setting with a not-so-typical story.
I mean, I know it's subjective but really - Bethesda's writing isn't THAT good...
NWN2 wins out with the OCs (yes, there are problems in all the OCs, but as Bioware was unable to actually finish the first OC as planned, the second was much too short, and the third was pretty well done, that gives NWN2 a decisive edge here).
When it comes to Playability out-of-the-box, ease of use (toolset, multiplayer, etc), different plattform compatibility, Custom Content, etc, etc, etc, NWN slams NWN2 hands-down.
This is why NWN wins out over NWN2, and why therefore, NWN2 is a total disaster - it did not pick up where NWN left off and take it further. Instead, Obsidian tried to "re-invent the wheel", so to speak, and failed miserably.
Is this Obsidian's fault? Partially. They bit off more than they could chew, admitted it publically, and had to chop large portions of what was planned out, use tools (like Granny) that no-one can afford or has a conversion program for, etc, etc. Unfortunately, the chopped out parts never really made it back in (conversion to Consoles, for example). Obviously Atari/Hasbro were the others at fault here. This meant that much of the multi-plattform NWN goodness also fell along the wayside, which basically alienated a rather large portion of the NWN CCCers (custom content creators). That, in turn, basically spelled doom for CC for NWN2 (when compared to that which is available for NWN).
Which Custom Content Mods for NWN are good? Go take a look on the NWN forums for your answer. There are lists longer than I care to post here. One that stands out is the Aielund saga. A Dance with Rogues is very, very good. And on, and on, and on...do your own research. Heck, Wyvern Crown of Cormyr is better than anything officially released for NWN2, including MotB. Great, immersive storyline, believable characters, ridable horses, etc.
Hey! Let us talk about animations *giggle* No, better not. NWN beats NWN2 hands down in animations (especially custom animations). Nothing breaks my immersion more than this - especially the slide-over-the-ground animation that all NWN2 characters suffer from. This is from a poorly done synchronization effect.
Aribeth vs Khelgar??!! Oh gods no...just...no.
You want to seriously consider romancing Khelgar here??!! I need some emoticons here...at least one gets the chance to redeem Aribeth in hell in HotU. And in some custom content...well, that just goes further.
Let me see, a hawt-looking half-elf Paladin that falls...yummy. A dwarf that cannot decide to be a brawler or not...bleh. Where is the hawtness, do say?
Please point out the "hawt babe" in NWN2 - and please do not say Qara, Neeshka, or Elanee, not Shandra, not Kaelyn, certainly not Zhjaeve or Safiya.
The only one who could be said to be hawt was not even possible to get as a companion was Torio! Now she was hawt! Too bad one could not get her as a companion and romance her! Why wasn't she available in MotB?
Fleshed out, Torio could have been as hawt as Aribeth. Alas, such was not to be. Imagine getting to rescue Torio, say, from the Wall!!! W00t! Or meeting her standing in line in the City of Death, and getting to recruit her.
As for very annoying NWN2 bugs, see this http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Companion
Also, the give command to companion, switch to another, and that former command "disappears" bug is really, REALLY annoying! This basically means turning off all AI, and only giving a simple, single command instead of blocks of them, since otherwise they disappear often from the queue without notice or reason.
Now, on the surface, the multi-party system of NWN2 is better than the one character with AI controlled henchmen of NWN.
However, as revealed above, the many bugs results in much hair-pulling, screaming, and yeah, spoils immersion because one is constantly fighting the bugs...bleh, instead of concentrating on the game.
I choose to use the OHS (custom content) for NWN (allows for Companions in NWN). Then I don't have these problems.
Of all the NWN2 OCs, I preferred SoZ. Now that was a nice sandbox type of adventure! If not for the bugs as outlined above, I would have replayed it indefinitely.
Now I play NWN (a heavily moddified version, of my own doing, on a PW created SP Mod, which has an incredibly deep storyline combined with all that PW goodness). Oh, and BG:EE at the moment.
What would be fantastic is if Beamdog redoes NWN!! Looking forwards to that...NWN:EE ftw!!!!
Isn't it a bit unfair to judge the substance of a character through "hawt"-ness (mostly the looks judging by your post) alone? Don't get me wrong, I do like Aribeth, I really do. But it's just not about the romance options when the substance of the characters are concerned...personally, I don't fancy these games to be a romance sim; a big bonus, I admit, but not the decisive factor. Khelgar and Ammon Jerro are actually pretty fleshed out characters, and they don't have to be romanceable to be so. In my book, they are better than Aribeth. Just think of Irenicus, is he romanceable? Is he good-looking? If I remember correctly, he's stitched up everywhere. But he is considered by many to be the most badass (and likeable) antagonist ever. Nonetheless, I won't take away credit out of the NWN; it is still one of my most loved games ever esp with PRC pack. And between NWN-2 and 1, it's about a stalemate for me. But perhaps if I really have to choose one, I'd give a little edge for NWN-2 for the character content and story (the most important criteria for me).
The point is, it's just not about romance. I have to admit though...as a romance option, I wish they could have had someone like Aribeth. Out of all the female companions in NWN-2, romance options for Qara and Kaelyn could have been likeable, at least compared to Elanee. But surprisingly, they were not included.
1.While some of the VA in NWN2 was really bad (that horrible romancable elf comes to mind), most of it was great and it does help immersion
2.I liked the classes and the way they were implemented. However I don't play PnP so that may have something to do with it
3.NWN2 was meant to be a game that comes with a toolset, not a toolset that comes with a built in demo campaign like NWN. That's the difference and as far as the game goes, it's NWN2 that is better
4.NWN2 had some issues with the camera but other than that I can't see what's wrong with the interface
Bottom line is that it comes down to priorities. If it's the story, party interaction and party management that's important for you, NWN2 is easily the better game. If you are looking to build your own content, NWN wins the cake. But then again if it's the latter, why don't you just grab a lego or Minecraft?
The radial menu from NWN 1, was incredibly smooth and easy to use, and the lower bar allowed for 36 buttons worth of easy access for frequently used or emergency abilities...NWN2 is a clunky mess by comparison. Also the inventory is way more annoying to use cause everything is a tiny little square, vs being able to spot at a glance what you're looking for. NWN2 had a decent camera on release (on par with NWN1, so...not great but ok)...it was about the only thing that wasn't crap pre-patch, but MotB and especially SoZ screwed it up so badly it wasn't funny.
And that AWFUL no death crap from NWN2 just killed it for me. I despised NWN1 for basically that same garbage (though they at least penalized you some gold and xp for it). SoU and HotU handled it best. SoU you lost your noob protection after chapter 1, and HotU your limited revival chances were part of the plot.
And the crafting...ugh..the crafting...I hate them so much. Even the horrible system aside, they fact they screwed up warlocks, THE best magical crafters of any class in that game, really gets on my nerves. A large part of the warlock's strength is that they can craft magic items to augment their abilities. It took till MotB to even give the ability they should've had on day 1, but because of how stupid the system is they can still only craft a tiny handful of the things they should be capable of.
It gives me a headache just trying to quantify everything retarded about the system. Especially since they could've just ripped off the PRC's crafting system from NWN1....it would've been perfect.
Making FO3 out of BG1-2? No, please. Ruining Fallout series with it's action-RPG 3rd instalment was more than enough. BG just does not deserve that fate.
@WebShaman
While your opinion is not completely irrelevant, and you actually do have some point with your subjective opinions there. You completely undermine yourself by your use of hyperbole to underscore your subjective view point.
Not trying to be rude saying that btw.
I presented facts to back up most of my points - did you even read the link? Mods, I provided facts (Aielund Saga, A Dance with Rogues, WCoC), and of course I did expouse abit on the different party controls of both games.
The fact that NWN runs on more platforms than NWN2 is not contested (and thus, those of NWN who use those platforms cannot run NWN2).
NWN2 does use Granny, it is very expensive and there is no compatible plug-in for it.
Urquhart did admit that parts of NWN2 did land on the cutting floor publically, especially the import to consoles (the main reason why NWN2 was not Open GL based) and Ridable Horses, for example. There are others (see the link that I posted) - like being able to import your character from NWN to NWN2, or being able to load up an area from NWN in NWN2.
What more in the way of facts do you wish for me to "trot out" so that you can still maintain it is all "subjective" and "opinion"?
If I weight the facts, as we did in that NWN debate on NWN2, NWN comes out the winner. Obviously, there will be those who subjectively like one more than the other - which is perfectly fine IMHO. Or who like one or the other for a specific reason lacking in the other - also fine IMHO.
But weighting everything together and getting a consensus is far from a "subjective opinion".
As I said, all things considered, NWN is the better game.
There is also something that needs correcting - the NWN OC was NOT just an example of what the toolset could do. Bioware did release the notes to the NWN Community about how the NWN OC was supposed to be, but due to the legal problems involving IP eating up necessary developement time, it got dropped, leaving that which we got, instead. I think it is somewhere on The Vault, but I am not sure.
TBH, I do not consider whether a game has a "hawt" or not romance-able character to be important (though it does seem to help sales). I just do not see Aribeth being able to be compared to Khelgar. Aribeth is a huge part of NWN, whereas Khelgar is not a huge part of NWN2 (OC wise). Where Khelgar is a companion in the first OC (and one that one has to take, really irritated me), Aribeth is not, though one has more interactions with Aribeth in the OC as with any henchie, really.
In HotU, Aribeth has a chance of becoming a henchie, and of being saved, so to speak.
I personally did not like Khelgar, but that is my subjective opinion here. Ammon Jerro was a much better character IMHO. Much more mature, and much more "realistic", if one can even mention such in a fantasy game.
I am old enough to own the original edition of The Dungeon Masters Guide, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods and have spend 100's of dollars on P&P modules, miniatures, etc.... I would HAPPILY spend more money on content for the Infinity engine...As would all my friends. The Infinity Engine handles the job of Dungeon Master just fine from my old-school perspective. It, for me, is close to the ideal way to play a game genre that has brought me so many hours of entertainment for many decades.
In fact...New content for the infinity engine has been a constant conversation between myself and my friends ever since we completed the first iteration of this wonderful game....constant....We always dreamt of the old pen and paper modules we never got to play being ported to the screen via Infinity Engine.
So, all this talk about BG3 and debating debating the mechanics of various similar interfaces seems a bit overwrought to me when the solution has been there all along....the engine...Don't worry about reinventing the wheel, just grease the wheel you already have and put some new tires on it it every now and then....I WILL GIVE YOU MONEY.
However, if BG 3 is going to be a thing, I want it to be classic BG-style. Not 3D or anything like the NWN series was. Those titles are fine, but then they aren't really BG.
For years (decades?) I've thought that the best thing that could happen to RPGs would be a new version of the Infinity Engine. An Infinity Squared engine? Something newer and easier to work with: a game engine capable of making games like Shadows of Amn and Planescape Torment--a game engine to be licensed out to as many developers as possible.
Hell, rather than hiring incompetent developers to make shoddy D&D games, Wizards of the Coast (or whoever) ought to just finance a really robust RPG-making utility in the vein of the Infinity Engine, and focus more on making it user-friendly so it could rely on user-created content, or license it out to other developers to make larger games, and/or produce smaller, episodic games.
...
And on the subject of BG3, I'm honestly glad that none of the sequel projects have gotten off the ground.I don't like--at all--this notion that the third game should be completely divorced from the previous two. The "Black Hand" (or whatever) version of BG3 sounded particularly awful, as it was a "Baldur's Gate 3" in name, but in terms of story would have been more a sequel to Icewind Dale.
Anyone pursuing the big budget corporate mindset of a totally new flashy 3d masterbatron of a game is ignorant enough to completely miss what we love about this game....besides...simply creating content for an engine that we have already would be much easier and in the long haul much more lucrative and sustainable.
I believe this presumed direction would be a mistake. The game engine we love exists already without the need for a single refinement or addition, Infinity is the improved animated version of gaming with the same perspective I would get if I were to unbox all my pewter figurines and place them on my numerous paper maps painted cardboard partitions. Except, it does it much faster, cleaner and the dice never roll off the table :-)
Black Isle/Obsidian where better at both story and creating interesting challenging fights while Bioware is better at presentation of the story and deciding what to fix on a tight shedule before release.
Because lets be honest both companies released some horribly bugged games but Bioware is better at fixing important or more obvious stuff first and cutting unfinished side quests out completely.
EDIT: I wonder why anyone still wants a BG3 after TOB finished the Bhaalspawn story. Second edition rules is pretty much impossible because of Hasbro, the story is finished so the only thing left would be the location Baldurs Gate which I would say is a rather boring region of the Forgotten Realms compared to others.
A game that has D&D setting focused on party control with a good story and tactical combat would be great but why Baldurs Gate 3 and not anything else in a D&D setting?
Spiderweb Software is.