Fighter to thief dual-build questions
lunar
Member Posts: 3,460
I have a very competent (and handsome CHA 18 =D) human fighter character, and I want to build him as a viable backstabber, and a quite versatile character. At lvl 1 I spent proficiencies like this: Scimitar/Wakizashi/Ninja-to ++ Single Weapon Style ++
Then I plan to get mastery in Scimitars at lvl 3 fighter, then dual into thief.
At level 1 thief, I plan to learn shortbow proficiency (to help level up now weak thief) and a back-up melee weapon. (dagger? Dagger of Venom would be nice)
At level 4 thief, my fighter levels would be back, so I plan to put the next proficiency to Scimitars again, getting high mastery. At this point proficiencies are: Scimitar ++++ Single Weapon Style ++ Dagger + Shortbow +
Then at lvl 8, I will get another proficiency and I plan to get grand mastery at scimitars. And finish the character like this: Scimitar +++++ Single Weapon ++ Dagger + Shortbow +
This way, my character will use scimitars with grand mastery in melee or when backstabbing (does it grant +1 attack like it did in BG1?) will have +2 AC and incresed critical hits, can employ dagger of venom to backstab and poison certain spell-casting enemies, and when all fails, fall back to a shortbow and all those magical ammunitions available.
Is this build doable? Or do you have any ideas/reccomendations? Idea feels cool to me I hope it is doable AND viable. ^^
Then I plan to get mastery in Scimitars at lvl 3 fighter, then dual into thief.
At level 1 thief, I plan to learn shortbow proficiency (to help level up now weak thief) and a back-up melee weapon. (dagger? Dagger of Venom would be nice)
At level 4 thief, my fighter levels would be back, so I plan to put the next proficiency to Scimitars again, getting high mastery. At this point proficiencies are: Scimitar ++++ Single Weapon Style ++ Dagger + Shortbow +
Then at lvl 8, I will get another proficiency and I plan to get grand mastery at scimitars. And finish the character like this: Scimitar +++++ Single Weapon ++ Dagger + Shortbow +
This way, my character will use scimitars with grand mastery in melee or when backstabbing (does it grant +1 attack like it did in BG1?) will have +2 AC and incresed critical hits, can employ dagger of venom to backstab and poison certain spell-casting enemies, and when all fails, fall back to a shortbow and all those magical ammunitions available.
Is this build doable? Or do you have any ideas/reccomendations? Idea feels cool to me I hope it is doable AND viable. ^^
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I'd start as berserker. No ranged weapon specialisation is not important as you don't intend to do that anyway and Rage is nice for several reasons (one of them being that +2 dmg is multiplied by backstab).
And yes, in BG1EE reaching grandmastery in a weapon gives another 1/2 attack.
I agree with @doomdoomdoom that a berserker could be a better choice. Given your proposed character build, you wouldn't be missing out on anything.
Regarding your choice of scimitars as your backstabber's main weapon: Since powerful ones aren't too common (Unless you're relieving a certain drow of his signature pair), you might be better off going in a different direction. For instance, you could more-easily get a powerful longsword early in the game. You might also consider building a quarterstaff "backwhacker", which would grant you more damage (I think? Certainly in BG2...).
Do note that a second point in single weapon style only gives you a =1 AC bonus. The main benefit of the style is from the first point.
Personnaly, I would dual class at lv 7 fighter. If you follow this way, you'll reach lv 8 with your thief.
Pro :
+ 1/2 att bonus with lv 7 fighter
+ some health and thaco provided from the fighter class
+ able to reach grand mastery
Con :
- Backstab multiplyer limited to x3
You'll be gimped for a significant part of the game (while leveling your thief to 8).
Indeed! At least you'll have good HP.
In fact this feature (and the feature that multi-class fighters cannot attain mastery, which I know some folk like to "fix" with a mod too) is probably the only thing that keeps dual-classed fighters somewhat competitive (although still mostly inferior) to multi-class in BG2+TOB with all those HLAs around.
All dual classing from fighter should happen at level 3. The great drawback of dualclasssing is that you will spend a part of the game without the benefits of one of the two classes. And the second class will be somewhat weaker than a pure build because of the XP spent on the first class.
This is OK as long as the time spent on reaching the moment when the two classes are combined does not take up a major (let alone the largest) part of the game.
Because of the progessive xp cost of the levels, each level that the dual classing is postponed adds a HUGE amount of time "lost" until the real usefulness of the dualclass combo kicks in.
E.g. for a fighter to thief dual class, the total needed xp for the combo are:
- level 3 dc: 9. 000
- level 4 dc 18.000
...
- level 7 dc: 134.000 (ie almost 15 times what is needed for a dc at level 3)
The game is not just what happens at the end. You will need that fighter much earlier.
Ragnarok's advice is good if your main aim is building a character for use in BG2. In that case you may even choose not to dc at all until you start BG2, where XP is MUCH easier to come by.
So my guy will have 2 attacks/round with his scimitar? +½ specialisation, +½ from grand mastery. Not bad.
Is it considered cheese or cheating to do dual-classing for extre proficiencies and mastery? Hmm..Staff wielding backstabbers are certainly effective, at least from what I saw on another let's play forum. But it lacks the style, so.. I know about the single weapon prof., but since my guy won't be using shields, like, ever, he needs all the extra AC he can get.
Yeah, but that would be no fun to play, IMHO. It would take too long to start being a thief, and even longer to be an effective backstabber (getting fighter levels back) at all. But thank you for the tip!
I don't plan to continue playing on to BG2 with this guy, not until BG2:EE is available, at least. Thank you all for the ideas, I will see how my guy will play out!
1) Make a level 2 fighter
2) Dual to anything
3) Get to grand mastery in any weapon?
If that is true why wouldn't clerics go fighter level 2 then Cleric and grand mastery maces, hammers etc
Or even mages do that to grand master slings or darts or etc... I mean you almost lose no xp going to 2 fighter.
Pick berserker and you get yourself a free get out of jail free card with the immunities and grand mastery in anything you want?
And if that was a bug how was that not fixed in EE, because that seems like one of the larger exploits I've ever heard of.
Edit: Furthermore....
My level 2 Fighter / Level XX Anything would get higher mastery in a weapon than my F/X or F/X/Y could that would have at LEAST Fighter level 3+?
You need to hit level 3 to get +++ in a weapon, dual to cleric or thief, and at level 4 (where you get your fighter proficiencies back) you can put another and at lvl 8 to a total of +++++. Mages, obviously, can not do this. (will only get one more prof. at level 6 that will limit them to high mastery ++++)
It is the only advantage of humans over other races, afterall, I don't think it is a huge exploit.
Yeah, kinda my bad, I always have in mind end-game or future prevision for BG2 hehe. Keeping in mind a "fun" run for BG1 alone, dual classing around lv 3 might be the best choice.
At the very least a multi class fighter should be able to progress past 2 pips if a level 2 Fighter / Anything can progress to 5.
Though... I guess the point of a multi class is you level in everything and master none.
And the point of a dual class is you get the full benefits of both classes with the disadvantage of having to be human, never being able to progress in the first class, and having to reach level + 1 of the first class.
So I guess being able to grand master weapons is one of the "full" benefits of the fighter class. I just was surprised that worked because I had never tried it.
Berserker is a great kit, but if you intend to play into BG2EE (with ToB), think about choosing a kensai kit. Yes, the no-armor sucks at first, but for a thief, it's not such a big problem anyway. You are keeping to shadows and havin -AC from the kensai bonus + single weapon mastery. Plus of course shield amulet.
On the contrary, you will get bonus to THAC0, damage and speed. And after getting UAI HLA, it will disappear.
Yes...you might say that this cheesy dualclassing combo is best done on lvl 13, but then you can't play a thief in BG1. Dual-classing on lvl 7 is half-way between play enjoyment and powergaming.
I agree about multi-class characters being able to progress in all of their classes, but being masters of none. And to tell you the truth, I am not sure if dual-classing worked this way about the proficiencies in PnP, but it always worked like this in BG2.
It was Anomen's selling point against other cleric, Viconia. Anomen could actually become grandmaster in his cleric weapons since he had fighter training in his youth. Then again, Viconia was a crack-shot with her sling thanks to her maximum DEX, also she had huge MR, more cleric spells thanks to her wisdom, a better romance, more interesting backstory, and she was not nearly half annoying as Anomen. (Even though she tries very hard to hurt and annoy everyone)
For proficiencies, I suggest focusing on Longswords and single weapon style. I prefer to avoid taking Drizzt's scimitars and you aren't playing BG2 with this character. Longswords are going to be your most damaging backstab option I believe. Plus you can get a +2 (I think) longsword early on from the bounty hunter near Nashkel Mines. If I were you, I'd only put 1 point into single weapon style. But 2 is acceptable. Don't take shortbow (or any missile weapon) proficiencies. You won't be able to use them after you get Kensai back. You can get around that by specializing in daggers. That gives you access to throwing daggers and to the Dagger of Venom. The only downside of this build is that you won't be able to wear any armor or bracers once you regain your Kensai levels. So make sure your dexterity is 18 at character creation and make sure your constitution is 18. Get the Claw of Kazgoroth and use the constitution tome, giving you an overall constitution of 17. Get the shield amulet from the carnival early on. It's basically going to be your armor the whole game until Jaheira, Faldorn, or one of the mages can cast protective spells on you (Barkskin, Ghost Armor, etc). If you don't have 18 strength right away it's not a huge deal. You can get the belt from Rasaad's quest and use that. Intelligence is meaningless for you anyway. You'll just have to dump Rasaad after that though because he won't be much good without having that belt on himself.
Ooh that is a nice idea. I will try it in the future, thanks. I really really dread playing a lvl 1 kensai, as I fear they may be too fragile without armor, and all..umm, a lvl 3 kensai will have +1 to hit and +1 to damage? Hmm, I am not sure if it is worth not being able to wear armor/bracers and not using a bow. When it is required, my guy can don full plate armor and it is a HUGE improvement on character's survival, at least at low levels. Also, isn't shadow armor useful? Then again, a backstab followed by kai sounds sweet too! Hmm.
So your suggested kensai build, longsword +++ and single weapon ++ at lvl 3, dual. At lvl 1 thief, get dagger+ and...uhh, what? I should avoid ranged weapons, and I can not specialise in daggers now (fighter level is inactive) so I should get something dud like shortsword...or quarterstaff? At lvl 4 and 8, I will continue on improving longsword. Uhh..so many options and ideas.
I've completed tons of BG2 runs, and I've never once NOT had Viconia, and I've never ever had Anomen.
@Morvian
I wonder if a Kensai 6/ Thief 9 with grand mastery in staffs and using the staff of striking and kai would one shot Saverok with their 4x backstab...
Achieving mastery, high mastery, and grand mastery are benefits of being a single-class fighter. A dual-class fighter-thief USED to be a single-class fighter, but no longer is. The idea of a dual-class is to switch classes while retaining the benefits of the previous class, not to switch classes while still developing skills unique to the first class. A fighter dual-class should be no more able to achieve higher levels of mastery in weapons than a thief should be able to continue to increase thief skills, or a priest to continue gaining spell slots.
But hey, like I said in my first post, it's your game. Play it how you want.
Regarding berserker vs. kensai: Kensai is a more advanced choice, but I like it better than berserker. You're going to give up a few points of AC, but your berserker would only be wearing leather armor anyway after the dual-class. The ability to kai+backstab for an instant-kill beats having slightly better AC when your backstab fails to kill the target. And any way you build this guy, they aren't going to be a tank anyway.
He's all about discipline and honor and only cares about being the greatest swordsman in the world, and also he is a pirate.
Pirates are kinda roguish. Close enough.
I agree, it can work.
I mean, if you strictly adhere to the discipline/honor thing that Kensais have going, then really any use of the class is breaking RP. A honorable and disciplined Kensai would be a frontline fighter, right? But there's no way that a Kensai trying to tank will survive for long. A single-class Kensai is all about flanking, which isn't very honorable.
EDIT: And honor =/= Idiot. He is not a paladin. He is a fighter which is so very good with his chosen weapon. It doesn't mean he won't use an adventage when he have one. Flanking is a viable combat tactic I fail to see what is not honorable about it.
But even if you can it oversight, which may or may not be the case, they didn't fix it and decided to go with it as a game balance feature for a reason IMO.
All that dual vs multi stuff is just to give humans some kind of edge in 2E. They got rid of it in 3E and gave humans other benefits (although they still became less powerful than other races).
And it makes for some interesting builds.
Of course if you use this just like some guy above proposed, 2-3 fighter levels as a starting point to other base class, it can seem to be prone to abuse - although they balanced it by making that you can't dual-class into a kit or a specialist mage (which are more powerful than plain mage/thief/cleric) or into any of the new cool classes really.
So really, I don't see how it's an exploit or cheese. Especially when they further balanced it by nerfing the grandmastery in original BG2.
You think this is cheese but things like Pal2/SorcX in 3E is not? Mkay... like you say, it's your game.
i thought you needed to lvl a fighter till lvl 9 to get grandmaster and after that dual
If I understood the concepts in this thread correctly...
You don't need to reach grand mastery before you dual from fighter to something else, once you re-obtain your fighter levels the proficiency points the other class gets can be used to continue on to grand mastery.
Edit:
For example I think a Fighter at level 1 could take 2 pips in staves, then at level 3 take a third, and at level 6 take a fourth. Then dual to Thief, and at thief level 4 take something else, and by thief level 8 you will have re-obtained your fighter abilities and can use the proficiency you got as a level 8 rogue to take the 5th pip for grand master in staves.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.
IMO this should be fixed.