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Stunned/held/sleeping enemies

Hello,
I'd like to hear some clarification on "disabled" enemies getting hit automatically because it doesn't seem to be the case in my game. I very often miss when attacking a disabled foe.

Comments

  • GygaxianProseGygaxianProse Member Posts: 201
    It is a little odd, but I spose adds some balance to the already potent sleep and hold spells. The attacker should be getting +4 to hit prone targets.
  • DrexxikDrexxik Member Posts: 18
    Thanks that's all i wanted to know :)
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited December 2012
    Huh? In my game sleeping/held/paralysed targets are always hit automatically. That includes web effect, but not grease/entangle. You never miss but you never critical hit, either. Even a party of mages can quickly kill a helpless foe with sling bullets/darts, as agonizing as it must be..

    It must be the graphical animation of attacks that you see, but they do not connect a held foe. Like, a fighter makes a lot of swings with his sword but only hits once. Most of the swings you see are for show, ie:they represent parries, feints, missed attack chances etc. in a single given round. Your number of attacks determine how often you make a damaging attack in a round. Turn on attack dice rolls from options so you will see when a party member makes an attack, the bonuses or penalties he gets, and if he missed or hit.

    Or did they implement a new rule in the last patch? I haven't checked properly..
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    You can still critically miss a held/etc target.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    karnor00 said:

    You can still critically miss a held/etc target.

    Ooh, really? But there is no attack roll when attacking a held enemy, or I never noticed. It just..hits. How can I critical miss if there is no attack roll? Now I am confused.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    I've never missed a Commanded Watcher who is wearing plate, with a THAC0 20 slinger. You shouldn't be having an attack roll at all in this case.
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    edited December 2012
    lunar said:


    Ooh, really? But there is no attack roll when attacking a held enemy, or I never noticed. It just..hits. How can I critical miss if there is no attack roll? Now I am confused.

    You roll a d20 to determine your unmodified attack roll + thac0 - AC +/- luck modifier +/- whatever else---
    A natural rolled 1 on the d20 is always a critical miss, while a natural rolled 20 always hits (and is usually considered a critical hit, but can be avoided by helmets or the creature is immune etc..yet it still hits). The critical threat range can be modified - at least in the game - by having either 2-handed-weap-prof or single-weap-style. So you would need e.g. only 18-20 to always hit/crit while wielding a two-handed-sword (+2 points in the appropriate proficiency)

    In the options/gameplay/feedback you can enable the combat rolls..at least the basic ones. It's a bit of overkill information..but if you wanna know what's happening...

    edit: i think in vanilla bg1 there was an option to show you the whooooooooooole combat roll, including all modifiers. But since it's the BG2-engine it just got disabled, and the option doesn't work :)
    In BG2 you can at least re-enable it by using a mod, that modifies your ~.exe.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    @valky

    I have that turned on, it really is an automatic attack confirmation with no roll, unless they've changed versions from 2011 overnight. It also reports critical miss/hit when rolled against normal targets; as there is no roll, there's no chance of either and they are never reported.
  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    edited December 2012
    OP, I suspect you may not be entirely familiar with how attacks work in this game, but correct me if I'm wrong.

    Anyway, every time your character makes a "swing" isn't necessarily actually an attack. Your character will very often swing and "whiff" even though the game isn't actually attempting to attack anything. I believe this was done in order to make it look as if your character is "fighting". If you want to know when your character actually attacks(how often depends on the "attacks per round" stat) you should enable to hit rolls in the game options.

    Stunned, sleeping, et.c. enemies are automatically hit(as evidenced by the fact that even if you have enabled to see the to hit rolls, no such rolls are made when attacking disabled opponents), or should at least be unless you are experiencing some weird bug. Feared, charmed or confused enemies however, are not.

    Edit: Ranged weapons are different from melee weapons in that whenever you "see" an attack, the game is actually always making an attack.
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    edited December 2012
    valky said:


    In the options/gameplay/feedback you can enable the combat rolls..at least the basic ones. It's a bit of overkill information..but if you wanna know what's happening...

    That's all good and all, but the topic is about rolls on targets that are under hold/sleep effect.
    There are no hit rolls displayed in such case (even if the option you speak of is turned on, obviously) and the attacks always hit, at least it seems so (if anyone can provide actual tangible proof of a miss, feel free).
    The confusion, just like in other similar cases, is probably due to attack animations. They aren't always in sync with the actual hit.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Yeah, I play attack rolls enabled. And I understand how they work. There is never an attack roll when attacking a helpless foe. You just..hit. There is no critical miss. There is no critical hit either. You just hit freely.

    You may confuse attacking animations of melee characters, they swing swing swing their weapons but each swing is not considered an actual attack.
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    edited December 2012
    Pantalion said:

    @valky

    I have that turned on, it really is an automatic attack confirmation with no roll, unless they've changed versions from 2011 overnight. It also reports critical miss/hit when rolled against normal targets; as there is no roll, there's no chance of either and they are never reported.

    That'd be weird...held/stun/prone/similar isn't supposed to get an auto-hit, yet you get a modifier and in D&D it's -4 to his/her AC (and you deny his/her dex bonus to AC as well). There is yet one exception to this rule, but only or usually applies to 'special' enemies like trolls. They can be killed per PnP via a coup de grace if proned, that requires a full-round action or 1 ApR in case of a game - but I can't honestly imagine, that BG1/2/EE just simplified this and made it viable to all enemies :D (usually hits always ^^)

    edit: CdG against everything that can't defend themself and are usually are about to die hits always (-1 up to -10 HP)..but you shouldn't get the auto-hit against all disabled enemies with the basic attack combat concept in BGEE..

    edit:


    That's all good and all, but the topic is about rolls on targets that are under hold/sleep effect.
    There are no hit rolls displayed in such case (even if the option you speak of is turned on, obviously) and the attacks always hit, at least it seems so (if anyone can provide actual tangible proof of a miss, feel free).
    The confusion, just like in other similar cases, is probably due to attack animations. They aren't always in sync with the actual hit.

    The attack animation is no measurement at all, it's always a swing/stab independent of what weapon you are using in most cases. I can only speak for BG2 in that matter, but it got addressed by whole bunch of mods, as it does not make sense to stab/pierce with a morning star and similar.
    It just gives you the feeling your character is at least doing something :D

    But thanks to the BG2 engine, they are using as mentioned above, it's hard to give you an example of what the heck is going on. I currently am about to re-install BG2 (scs update...), so I can give you a screen later on of what the full combat roll is supposed to look or was in BG1 vanilla with a hidden parameter in the *.ini enabled. (it's more like a 2-liner then ^^)
    Post edited by valky on
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    edited December 2012
    This matter is more easily checked with a ranged weapon. There is one attack animation for every attack; it never misses.
  • valkyvalky Member Posts: 386
    Why it is so centered around that sole attack animation?
    In BG2 you can easily reach with/without grandmastery fix 6-10 ApR with whirlwind, but you won't see 6-10 swing per 6 second rule....it's more like 1 attack every 1.5 second.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    IIRC when you did use whirlwind your character really swinged his weapon real fast, like, in a frenzy...Doing 10 swing animations in one round, if not something very close to 10.
  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    lunar said:

    IIRC when you did use whirlwind your character really swinged his weapon real fast, like, in a frenzy...Doing 10 swing animations in one round, if not something very close to 10.

    Yes, but that's because 10 animations per round is the physical limit of the engine as far as I'm aware(the limit is 5, but "haste effects" double your animation speed). So naturally if you attack the full 10 times, it would have to use all of the animations for actual attacks.

  • AlsnAlsn Member Posts: 97
    edited December 2012
    valky said:

    Why it is so centered around that sole attack animation?
    In BG2 you can easily reach with/without grandmastery fix 6-10 ApR with whirlwind, but you won't see 6-10 swing per 6 second rule....it's more like 1 attack every 1.5 second.

    Bear in mind that the amount of attacks per real life second while playing BG2 will vary not only on your actual attacks per round, but what FPS you have configured the game to run on. I'm not sure exactly how long a round is on the default 30 fps, but it's definitely shorter than 6 real life seconds when you're running at 60 frames.
  • agrisagris Member Posts: 581
    I believe 1 round = 6 s @ 30 fps (default), 1 turn = 10 rounds and every character has a personal round timer, not a global. So at your 60 fps, 1 round is 3 s.
  • DrexxikDrexxik Member Posts: 18
    Wow I didn't expect to provoke a debate ^^. Anyway thanks for all the information. I am fully aware how attacking works in ADnD but i didn't realize some animations were just for show. I'm also noticing now that my weapon swing frequency differs from fight to fight. If I'm fighting a single enemy it's a rather fast exchange of blows but if there's more enemies my warrior seems to take a pause to turn his head around and whatnot.
  • PugPugPugPug Member Posts: 560
    BG also does some attack animations without actually doing attacks. It makes it look more exciting or something.
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