What level should an Assassin dual class?

Riolathel

Basically I am on my evil playthrough of BG:EE and decided an assassin would be a fun choice for evil-doing.

I'm level 3 and already i'm beginning to notice how Thac0 could be an issue in my combat effectiveness.. I have the right abilities to dual-class to fighter, but nothing else. I plan on playing this character through BG2 as well so i was wondering exactly when the best time would be for me to dual. If i dual to fighter will i be able to increase proficiencies above 1 point, and will those points carry over when i regain my assassin class?"

Oxford_Guy

Riolathel said:

Basically I am on my evil playthrough of BG:EE and decided an assassin would be a fun choice for evil-doing.

I'm level 3 and already i'm beginning to notice how Thac0 could be an issue in my combat effectiveness.. I have the right abilities to dual-class to fighter, but nothing else. I plan on playing this character through BG2 as well so i was wondering exactly when the best time would be for me to dual. If i dual to fighter will i be able to increase proficiencies above 1 point, and will those points carry over when i regain my assassin class?"

Yes, but any proficiencies you put in whilst a fighter class only will not add to existing pre-existing proficiencies you had when you were an assassin, they will be lost, so make sure you use different prioficiencies until you get your assassin ones back, is fine after that (and you can still put more than one point into the proficiencies...).

BTW don't forget you can only backstab with melee weapons thieves can use.

Personally I don't like the idea of dualing an assassin, do it too low and you're wasting one of the best things about the assassin - the high backstab modifier, do it too late and you take *ages* to regain your assassin levels and by the late game you start encountering enemies that are immune to backstab.

Perhaps worth dualing at low-level, if you just want the assassin's poison weapon ability, but I'd rather take a blackguard (though the posion isn't as good)

JonelethIrenicus

I was suppose to vote on "Don't dual class"..

Oxford_Guy

JonelethIrenicus said:

I was suppose to vote on "Don't dual class"..

LOL!

The_Cheeseman

I wouldn't worry about your THAC0, as an Assassin, you will generally be attacking from a hidden state, which provides a +4 to your attack roll, and assuming you're running with a party and not solo, you will likely be in charge of handling enemy spellcasters before they get the chance to raise their defenses, so you won't need to worry about dealing with extreme AC opponents. Assassins don't get their x7 backstab multiplier until level 21+, so it isn't exactly a kit that lends itself well to dual-classing. If you want a thief who can mix it up in combat after his initial backstab, I suggest a Figher/Thief multiclass.

ZanathKariashi

Assassin's are actually pretty capable, even when not backstabbing, if you don't mind dual-wielding with them. While not at ALL ideal (given the current crappy state of two weapon style), with 2 speed weapons they can put forth a respectable showing of damage, for times when BSing isn't working. Most effective for the late game when you can pop a Tenser's scroll to off-set the thac0 penalty. Earlier, you're better off using darts or the tuigan bow to spread poison when BSing won't be effective.

Yeah, that +4 helps A LOT for hitting. Thac0+1+4+other gear+weapon, you'll only miss mages and thieves on a 1, hit clerics most of the time, assuming they're wearing pretty heavy armor, and hit high AC sometimes...though given that they tend to have a boatload of health anyway, you're probably better off just gunning them down with a hail of poisoned darts/arrows.

And that's just at the start of SoA. By the time you get to 22, you'll only miss the REALLY hard to hit enemies, and most of them can't be backstabbed anyway.

OH and the assassin's poison gets better at 10 and 15. Basically doubling damage each time. Or rather, the minimum damage doubles, and the damage dealt increases slightly, but happens over a shorter duration, so roughly doubled.

And like all thieves, their snares get more powerful at 11 (more damage, adds a dot), 16 (Even more damage, stronger dot), 21 (Even more damage, even stronger dot, save or DIE).

Riolathel

thanks for the advice guys. I guess i will be sticking to just single class..

From what i've read the best way to utilize it with Dualing is to get to 21 and then go fighter but im not interested in leveling 22 times till i get my abilities back.. If there's any game left to play by then.

so far i took single weapon style and prof in daggers and scimitars/etc.

Isair

I was actually mulling this over recently, if you were to dual at level 5 you'd have x3 backstab, poison, +1 THAC0 & Damage & could still reach level 8 as a fighter. However the downside really outweighs the bonuses, low HP, low thief skills, backstab won't increase. If you want a fighter with poison weapon go Blackguard.

The Assassin kit is really good enough by itself as everyone else has stated.

I have been thinking (I realise this is misguided & time consuming) of perhaps playing an Assassin & dualing at 21 (backstab limit & max poison), even though it'd take forever to surpass the Thief levels. I'd play the smallest possible party until I reach 21st level then dual - hopefully arround that time I'd be in Watchers Keep - & have the Deck of Many Things - boot my party & then use the deck to spam a huge amount of XP. Then probably solo for a while (the deck would take me to level 13 Fighter), it's just a meger 2250000 XP more to regain my Assassin skills haha. No doubt I'd get too bored &/or frustrated before that point & quit. But should I not I'll have my PC using the Staff of Ram & probably Darts.

Jango!

Oxford_Guy

OH and the assassin's poison gets better at 10 and 15. Basically doubling damage each time. Or rather, the minimum damage doubles, and the damage dealt increases slightly, but happens over a shorter duration, so roughly doubled.

I didn't know that, one of the may things not mentioned in the manual or in-game text, just the the increase in the number of times/day it can be used. Thanks for the info. @ZanathKariashi

BTW Does anyone know if this is true for the Blackguard's poison too?

And like all thieves, their snares get more powerful at 11 (more damage, adds a dot), 16 (Even more damage, stronger dot), 21 (Even more damage, even stronger dot, save or DIE).

Indeed! :-)

Oxford_Guy

Isair said:

I was actually mulling this over recently, if you were to dual at level 5 you'd have x3 backstab, poison, +1 THAC0 & Damage & could still reach level 8 as a fighter. However the downside really outweighs the bonuses, low HP, low thief skills, backstab won't increase. If you want a fighter with poison weapon go Blackguard.

and your traps wouldn't get better either, as @ZanathKariashi hinted

Isair said:

The Assassin kit is really good enough by itself as everyone else has stated.


I have been thinking (I realise this is misguided & time consuming) of perhaps playing an Assassin & dualing at 21 (backstab limit & max poison), even though it'd take forever to surpass the Thief levels. I'd play the smallest possible party until I reach 21st level then dual - hopefully arround that time I'd be in Watchers Keep - & have the Deck of Many Things - boot my party & then use the deck to spam a huge amount of XP. Then probably solo for a while (the deck would take me to level 13 Fighter), it's just a meger 2250000 XP more to regain my Assassin skills haha. No doubt I'd get too bored &/or frustrated before that point & quit. But should I not I'll have my PC using the Staff of Ram & probably Darts.

Jango!

I think that would be incredibly tedious, but then I'm aware I really don't like dual-classing much

Xezmeraude2

Polls like these can really lead to conflict and opinionizations from others and criticsim about best choices classes etc. Peronally I play as an assassin as they are and never dual class them and they dont really need to dual class imo. I find its a personal choice to dual for those who play that way for extra support lacking in a group. Assassins are ridiculously powerful if used right purely and they perform much better to their name when pure class. Dualing them to me is more for if you need some extra spells or another cleric persay. There is no purpose to make them fighter/assassin as they are in a way like one but use backstabs to attack for fighter/assassin is a bad way to go for they cant utilize their skills when in combat for backstabbing is their key and can only be done while hiding in shadows or invisble. But I dont think invisibility allows a backstab. Its just an instant critical hit. backstabs far as game engine goes is only activated by a theifs natural hide in shadow skill. I could be wrong. i just never really noticed invisibility allowing a backstab since Invisibillity only allows it seems a free hit long as theres no true sight or any mage or theif detecting illusions will cancel the backstab even while in invisibility

szb

@Xezmeraude2
You can backstab from invisibilty, I've used it lots of times with my illusionist/thief, very effective.

Riolathel

How does backstab work with invisibility? Once you hit them are you visible for a short time or does it wear off?

I hardly use invis as it is, and this is my first time running a character who backstabs

szb

Riolathel said:

How does backstab work with invisibility? Once you hit them are you visible for a short time or does it wear off?

I hardly use invis as it is, and this is my first time running a character who backstabs

It wears off when you attack, same ways as with a sneaking thief.
It's very usefull when you can't run around corners to re-hide

ZanathKariashi

Yeah, invisibility is pretty nice, pre-boots of speed, or when the room you're fighting in is too small to get out of LoS.

Of course the Sequel is just ridiculous, since you can buy unlimted rings of air control...they're pretty pricy, but if you're solo, you can easily afford several (I usually grab 2 right out the prelude, and drop by periodically to grab a couple more as money as allows). They cast improved invisiblity 1/day each. So you get invisibility, and improved ac for several rounds, and most caster's can't target you till the fading wears out.

bigdogchris

I suppose I don't understand why you would do this. The primary advantage to the Assassin to me is the additional backstab multiplier. The increased damage and THAC0 can be gotten elsewhere (Fighter/Thief, etc), you lose many thieving skills and poison weapon is OK but not a reason to use a class as it's very low damage overall.

I suppose if you were going to do it, I would at least wait until level 8 as you have your 2nd poison by then. Also as this character would not make a great thief (overall) Since you don't have many points to spread I would choose 1 or 2 things to be good at and put all of your points up to 8 in that. I like the idea of an Assassin that is good at detecting illusions and setting traps, though the usefulness in BG is probably small.

chickenhed

I read it to fast and didn't realize there was a "don't dual class". So that would be my vote. Having some weaknesses makes the game fun, and I don't like waiting for more than half the series to enjoy a character.

Alsn

If you're going to play a dual classed thief variant, it's almost always better to dual to thief instead of from it, unless you just want to gain a few levels in order to gain some minor thieving skills. Assassin in particular is the thief kit which most benefits from just sticking to the class since the kit advantages max out very very late(level 21 for x7 backstab). Dual classing that late is very prohibitive(unless you play through bg2 more than once) as the XP needed to regain your thief levels is extreme(due to how fast thieves level compared to everything else).

I've completed most of SoA/ToB as a solo assassin and it's very powerful, if somewhat tricky in some fights. The thief HLAs are extremely powerful even as a single classed thief as you can get 6 attacks with improved haste if using a +1 attack offhand(such as the +2 short sword from the planar prison) for when you use the assassination HLA. Not to mention time trap or use any item HLAs.

If you're really intent on dual classing, I'd go with Kensai first and then dual classing to a plain thief instead of assassin -> fighter. Like someone said, if you just want a fighter with poison weapon, blackguard is where it's at.

Final note though, theoretically, you *can* do an assassin -> fighter dual class while still getting a few thief HLAs without having to remove the XP cap. If you dual at assassin 25, you will be able to pick up two high level abilities(I'd go with assassination and time trap, use any item is unfortunately a luxury you can't afford) before dual classing at 3,3 million XP. A fighter reaches level 26 at 4,5 million XP which would mean that you would regain your thief abilities at 7,8 million XP(200k below the ToB cap). However, that's an absolutely massive amount of XP, something which you'd only realistically see at the very end of ToB or if you were playing completely solo through SoA.

So yea, moral of the story, go kensai -> thief or don't dual at all. Pure assassin is very playable and quite fun(you learn a lot of how "tricky" the game will let you be through having only a single attack per round but that attack being very powerful).

Darkovan

This isn't going to help you much in Bg:EE but if your continuing on to BG:SOA and eventually ToB you can duel-class an assassin/cleric.
Cleric xp progression is almost as swift as thief so much so that you can take epic level abilities for both classes and still unlock them before the end of ToB.

If you want to take the thief High Level Ability "Use any item" from your assassin levels you will have to wait until level 24 as a pure assassin and then make the switch to cleric if you do this you should hit level 25cleric before the end of ToB (at roughly 6.8million xp).
An average play through of SoA+ToB nets roughly 5.5mil xp with a full 6man party, so if you want to go down this road you will need to play with a smaller 4man party instead. (while your an assassin take a fighter mage and cleric and while a cleric run with a thief fighter and mage).
(the game is actually a hell of a lot of fun with a 4man group, just sayin).

Advantages:
Cleric Buffs...Cleric Buffs and more Cleric buffs

clerics can make them selves highly resistant to or even outright immune to almost every negative effect in the game with the exception of Maze and Imprisonment.
At higher cleric levels casting Holy power -> Draw Apon Holy Might -> Righteous Magic you will raise your STR/DEX/CON all to 25 for max health/damage/thaco and armor as well increase your thaco to that of an un-specialized fighter.
Righteous Magic also causes you to inflict maximum damage on all your attacks for the duration (including your 7x backstab) and any weapon procs that happen to activate.
Use Any Item allows you to continue using your thief weapons despite the change to cleric.

Disadvantages:
Epic amount of play time required to unlock both classes.
Requires a small party (recommend 4 or less including charname)


(on a side note you can back stab with all of the cleric summoned weapons for some pretty interesting options, this includes spirit hammer oddly enough. If this sounds like something you will do you should note that these weapons actually DO use proficiency points, Flaming sword is a short sword and spirit hammer is a war hammer, Shillelagh is a club. If you sink a point into short swords while leveling your assassin level you will maintain the short sword proficiency when summoning Flaming Sword, though you wont be able to equip normal shorts swords still).

STR: whatever your comfortable playing with, there are so many +str options in the game that it doesn't really matter.
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 10+ would be nice but not required
Wisdom: 17+ keep in mind that you will gain 3 from books in BG1, 1 from the machine of Lum the Mad and 1 more if your cleric levels are active before you finish SOA (eye door).
Charisma: whatever you want really.


I have a feeling I've forgotten something really important....

claudius

What about Dualing at level one? Just a thought experiment.

You'd basicly be a fighter... thac0 gets meaningless and a few HP won't matter. And then you'd get:

- +1 to THAC0 and Damage

- Can coat weapon in poison once/day for every 4 levels (next hit injects poison, dealing 1 damage/second for 24 seconds [3 damage for first 6 seconds], Save vs. Poison limits damage to 12 maximum)

- Backstab

If you want more stealth take the minimum level to hit your stealth goals with considering gear. You would normally wear heavy armor unless you want to start a battle with mages with a backstab.

ajwz

Am I being stupid or is there literally no mechanical reason whatsoever to pick assassin and then dual class out of it before picking up you x6 and/or x7 backstab multiplyer?

claudius

ajwz, it depends where your reference points are. We are talking about assassin -> fighter.

So then look and compare all of the choices. Less assassin means you will be gimped for less of the game. It's not always how powerful you are at the ending battle, sometimes it is nice to be strong relative to the monsters at a lower level, thus peaking at different timing from 17/21 assassins.

Darkovan

Pretty much no point.

Darkovan

HAHA!
I remembered that thing that i forgot, forget that bit about weapons, Use any item allows you to use all your thief weapons again despite now being a cleric, this is persistant even while still leveling the cleric levels before your assassin level re-unlock.
so ya, clerics with a katana...broke the game!

Just haxed one of these up to level to double check everything, editing original post.

Isair

@Oxford_Guy regarding the traps - traps are fantastic, however that particular dual (5/8) wouldn't have the points to spare on set traps. They'd be eaten up by hide & move silently, since assassin receives so few.

Regarding your point about it being tedious, yes. As I remarked earlier it would be. I'm more of a Fighter/Thief Multi person myself. But I've played that through far to many times.

Oxford_Guy

Isair said:

@Oxford_Guy regarding the traps - traps are fantastic, however that particular dual (5/8) wouldn't have the points to spare on set traps. They'd be eaten up by hide & move silently, since assassin receives so few.

True enough, though the lack of a) having enough points to spare on set traps and b) the lack of any set traps effect/frequency progression is an issue for this dual class build.

Isair said:

Regarding your point about it being tedious, yes. As I remarked earlier it would be. I'm more of a Fighter/Thief Multi person myself. But I've played that through far to many times.

Have you played a cleric/thief or thief/mage multi? They're both quite interesting, if not wishing to go through the tedium of dual-classing.

Oxford_Guy

ajwz said:

Am I being stupid or is there literally no mechanical reason whatsoever to pick assassin and then dual class out of it before picking up you x6 and/or x7 backstab multiplyer?

Well you'd still benefit from poison weapon and the +1 to hit/damage bonus, but I agree it means missing out on one of the best things about this kit (and probably the thief HLAs, that work well with it)

Isair

@Oxford_Guy Yep & they are. Also as duals (C/T,T/M & F/T) but not at such a high dual point.

Regarding traps on the lower level dual: I'd have another thief in the party, for locks, disarming, setting trap etc. The 5/8 dual (that I don't recommend) isn't keyed towards play-through as a Thief, more as a character who has limited access to a couple of abilities to enhance his combat skills. Think evil Stalker without the spells but with GM, weak poison weapon & a slight bonus to THAC0 & damage.

As I said it's a stray thought. I'm just trying to spitball new approaches to a game I've played since it's inital release. What better place to share my idle thoughts than the BGEE forums? This particular one was bought on by the topic at hand. I personally think that the Assassin class shouldn't be dualed but unconventional thinking & approaches can lead to (if nothing else) a fresh take. So why not try it once? BG isn't going anywhere & hopefully neither are we!

Aasimar069

If you want to dual class, dual class.

Otherwise, you can do a straight assassin, of course.

CoM_Solaufein

Don't dual class. An assassin is too cool to dual class. Maybe an ordinary thief.

Riolathel

Aasimar069 said:

If you want to dual class, dual class.

Otherwise, you can do a straight assassin, of course.

No offense but that's very unhelpful..

The reason i started this topic was because im unsure of how assassin does at high levels, and whether or not they can gain grand mastery prof if they DC to fighter