Thac0 or damage?

Royce1987

Which would most folk consider more important...for example, my cavalier (** in long sword and bastard swords) has arsconna (spelling) and albruin, vis does less damage but has a thac0 of 7 while albruin has a thac0 of 8 but does more damage...thoughts?

The_Cheeseman

Both are important. Overall, THAC0 will be more important at lower levels, when AC is quite low compared to your THAC0, but gets progressively less important compared to damage bonuses as average HP values creep upward while AC remains mostly static. There is no hard and fast rule as to which will be more valuable at any given point, it depends on your hit rates against the types of enemies you are likely to face.

marfig

edited out

IkMarc

In BG1 THAC0 hands down

Darkcloud

THAC0 until very late in BG2 and even then the THAC0 bonus will be better until it is a pretty good damage bonus.
In BG1 for arrows the ones with damage get better around mid game if you have a good archer.

ZanathKariashi

Damage...always damage, for a warrior class. Thac0 is only a concern for the first couple levels then becomes irrelevant (but you do want to keep a weapon with an enhancement bonus high enough to hit all your enemies requiring a particular lvl to damage...that's really the only concern). For non-warriors, thac0 is a bit more important for awhile. Though a BSing thief wants as much of both on their weapons as possible.

LordRumfish

In Baldur's Gate 1, I'd go with thac0. Just like it suggests in 3rd and 4th edition D&D, being able to hit at all is initially more important than damage. Don't neglect your damage though, because later in BG2 (especially if you're a full-thac0 class like fighter) you'll be hitting everything anyway and then the damage you do is most important.

CaptRory

I'm going to go ahead and agree with @The_Cheeseman .

If you can't hit your target, all the damage in the world won't help. Granted you always hit on a Critical. But yes, lowing your THAC0 is almost always better than raising your damage, all other things being equal. Eventually fighter-types get such good THAC0 that Armor Class and THAC0 Boosters are largely moot, but that's not til, like, Throne of Bhaal.

atcDave

Ultimately both matter. But at lower levels hitting is harder and most opponents have few hit points, so Thac0 is more important early in the game. That will gradually change; but there are always other issues like the armor class and hit points of the opponent; so which matters more may even vary from fight to fight.

SharGuidesMyHand

CaptRory said:

If you can't hit your target, all the damage in the world won't help.

This.

ZanathKariashi

The point is largely moot as thac0 will usually equal the damage bonus...so you're gonna be getting both regardless.

And no, warrior's reach the moot point at lvl 8. Drizzt has the highest AC in the entire saga, by a large margin, and a single class xp capped warrior using this lowbie gear can hit him better then half the time......you can literally beat the entire saga at lvl 8...solo. By the time you get to the end, you can't miss any enemy, except Drizzt, but by rolling a 1...still at lvl 8...just using gear you've picked up along the way, which will almost always have the highest damage potential (aside from pieces that never boost damage).

(A lvl 8 berserker or 6 dual'd F/M is recommended if you want to attempt this challenge)

Darkcloud

Sarevok has -11 AC the point where you always hit someone with -11AC is when your THC0 is at -13. Asuming that that is an AC many of the stronger foes in TOB have it is reasonable to say that you will never reach the point where the bonus to the hit chance isn't always 5% per point on THC0.

marfig

Ok. I had to edit out my last post because the battery on my laptop was dying and I made a rushed version that I then needed to edit. Sorry for that. So here it goes:

Rule 1)
Always favor damage when you have a 1:1 relationship between THAC0 and damage:

Consider (100 attacks against AC 0):
(a) THAC0 = 10, Damage = d8 + 1
(b) THAC0 = 9, Damage = d8

(a) will hit 50 times for a damage of 50d8 + 50. Average Damage = 225
(b) will hit 55 times for a damage of 55d8. Average Damage = 220

As you can see, despite hitting more often, the -1 increase in THAC0 you get from (b) isn't enough to shadow the +1 damage increase in (a). This is because THAC0 progression needs to take into account the 20-sided dice used to hit, whereas damage is a straightforward progression.

Rule 2)
Always favor damage if the increase in damage is greater than the increase in THAC0

A consequence of Rule 1)

Rule 3)
Always favor THAC0 if the increase in THAC0 is at greater than the increase in damage

The may not always be true, but only for big numbers, which is something you won't expect to see often on AD&D.

....

In case of doubt apply something like the above and you'll get an idea of which weapon to choose. Here's how to do it:

20 - THAC0 / 20 * 100 = Number of times you hit per 100 attacks

lunar

I would go with THAC0 at low levels. Hitting enemies to disrupting their spells is essential, even if you only do 1 point of damage. After a certain level, say, 7 as fighters get +½ attack, fighters get really good at hitting things reliably, but now the enemies have globs of HP so you need to improve your damage to keep it up.

For mages and rogue characters, THAC0 bonus is slightly more important IMHO. Since it helps them to hit at the first place. Melf's Minute Meteors is a great spell as it gives +5 to hit to the mage. (the fact that you can chuck them at a rate of 5/round is great, too!) and will still be very useful even if it did less damage per hit.

Pantalion

I usually go with THAC0; Arrows of Detonation don't detonate if you miss. This also applies to stuns, backstabs, dispels, poison, and disrupting spellcasting.

Disrupting spellcasting is one of the single most important things your lowly peons physical damage specialists can be doing, and the sooner you hit the target, the sooner the added effects can be piled on and the faster they die.

ajwz

As people have said, pretty much thac0 is better at low level, and damage is better at high levels. Basically this is because AC tends to level out and stop getting higher, so you end up being able to hit stuff easily anyway.

aXidal

@Marfig

marfig said:

Rule 1)
Always favor damage when you have a 1:1 relationship between THAC0 and damage:

Consider (100 attacks against AC 0):
(a) THAC0 = 10, Damage = d8 + 1
(b) THAC0 = 9, Damage = d8

(a) will hit 50 times for a damage of 50d8 + 50. Average Damage = 225
(b) will hit 55 times for a damage of 55d8. Average Damage = 220

You're right in that specific case (even if your numbers are a bit off).
But consider this case:

(100 attacks against AC 0):
(a) THAC0 = 18, Damage = d8 + 1
(b) THAC0 = 17, Damage = d8

(a) 15 hits of which 5 are criticals makes 20 hits (Considering damage)
20(d8+1) = 20*4.5+20 = 110

(b) 25 hits (counting criticals as 2)
25d8 = 25*4.5 = 112,5



Clearly we need a more general approach.
I will count damage in the unit damage per 20 attacks (D/20A)), as it gives the nicest formula.
The formula is the following:


((21-THAC0+Targets AC)+1) * (Average Damage) = D/(20A)


Average Damage = (Minimum Damage+Maximum Damage)/2

If THAC0-Targets AC is above 20, set it to 20 when calculating, if it's below 2 set it to 2

The plus on represents the critical hits. If you're having crits on both 19 & 20 change the 1 to a 2 and use 19 as maximum THAC0-Targets AC.




That said, this is only damage/attack and there's more to it than that. I totally agree with points @Pantalion makes. Also remember that every successful remove one Stoneskin or one Mirror Image.

Edit: Forgot to add the enemy AC into the mix, now fixed.

DJKajuru

I prefer attacks per round+thac0 bonus