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[BG2:EE] Druids revised?

chebmehchebmeh Member Posts: 20
edited December 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
Now, the following is simply my opinion on the matter, so please don't berate me for this: 2nd Edition AD&D is too restrictive, particularly so with druids. Yes, BG is more flexible than PnP, but the simple fact is that for all druids get, you may as well take ranger/cleric. Druids just aren't that pretty, and while there are plenty of PnP reasons why they have such a steep experience curve, it just deters people away from the class in BG2. While clerics, mages and even ranger/clerics are shooting off into level 20, you'll have just squeezed past level 14, which I think is really disheartening.

The shapeshift forms are particularly bad, including the forms from the shapeshifter kit. You sacrifice spellcasting to become a walking sponge, in the grand scheme of things. I admit that the BG2tweaks change to the shapeshifter kit was kind of overpowered, but here's the thing: it was playable! You still weren't as powerful as a well-kitted out cleric with a decent weapon and magical full-plate. That and you'd still take damage, frequently.

I believe it was also bg2tweaks that introduced changes to the experience tables of druids and made them mirror that of a cleric's. I'm not saying Overhaul should use these changes, but perhaps just create their own experience tables. Druids do have their strengths, but much less so than many other classes. They're not the worst class in the game, of course not. Bards could potentially win that competition. However, I don't like the idea of having so many underwhelming abilities that sound great, but aren't, and having a very long period of waiting while the rest of my party exceeds me by 6 levels.

Since combat is the core of BG, and roleplay really only bubbles down to the player's choices and stat distributions, I think one or two PnP restrictions should be lifted from the original game in order to provide a more pleasurable experience.

Show nature some love!

Comments

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited December 2012
    Bare in mind, the R/C druid spells thing is a bug....that I'm slowly working out a fix for (Mostly just need to figure out how to break the ranger's spellbook, other then that, I have a plan of attack worked out).

    Yes, the Shifter needs some work. The forms aren't getting the bonuses they're supposed to have, which make the GWW garbage at high levels since it can't hit anything (even with the fix it couldn't hit things requiring +4 or higher, but that's still a massive increase in usability over what it currently does, and having it's proper regeneration rate would do wonders for it's damage sponge-ness).

    The Avenger though is already brokenly powerful. They give a F/D a run for their money in shear ass-kicking. And are much more powerful in melee then even the GWW form would be if it was fixed (not as tough, but much higher melee damage)

    Totemic summons could also use a little buffing, let them hit as +2 and +3 at higher levels, and give them some magic resistance so they can soak spells more effectively...maybe require +1 to hit at higher levels.

    Level though isn't really that big of a deal though. They end up just as high level as mage and sorc at the end, they just have a rather nasty early game xp jump at 14. Though on the other hand, they level MUCH faster then clerics for the first 12 or so levels.

    Anton
  • Gnostic_GnomeGnostic_Gnome Member Posts: 4
    Why is the avenger brokenly powerful?

    I guess if you consider the druids spellcasting equal in power to the clerics they should both follow the same xp and casting progression. Clerics have turn undead and better equipment options though so maybe the druids animal forms should scale just a bit too.

    I am not sure that's the case though. Druids have stuff like iron skins, insect plague, conjure animals and natures beauty.
    Clerics have some great stuff too, but are their spells that good?

  • chebmehchebmeh Member Posts: 20
    Well if you compare all the druid tables to the cleric tables, the only reason I can see for taking druid over cleric is roleplay reasons and eventual elemental resistance. Other than that, they seem to bring nothing to the table that would warrant such an extravagant exp gap. Yes, they *can* reach the same level as mages/sorcs. In ToB. At max level. But a mage/sorc is a different breed. In fact, I'd say a decent mage or a f/m is better than a druid or f/d.

  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited December 2012
    The original developers stretched the rules as far as they could go to fit in Druids. Druids are very unique and powerful in 2nd Edition. They level quickly and in PnP cap out around 15 and have some very interesting lore around going higher than the teen levels. Classes being very unique is one of the best thing about 2nd Edition and any suggestion that this is changed to be more "balanced" or like other games, I say no to.

    I wouldn't of minded the original developers implementing Druids as close to PnP as possible and not make them a playable class. That really would of opened things up for story telling.

  • chebmehchebmeh Member Posts: 20
    That would alienate a lot of players. Druids might be very powerful in 2nd edition, but not necessarily in BG, which is a game about combat first and foremost. Now we have a unique and interesting class that's outshone by a vast majority of other class perks. The bonuses aren't worth the maluses, and the lore about druids>heirophants doesn't really come to light in bg2, so unless part of the new content in bg2:ee focuses around that, I still feel that druids are being given the finger.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited December 2012
    Because Sword spider form hits as +5, has a base of 5 attacks per round, poisons, (SHOULD be immune to web, which I think they have a fix for finally), are hasted. Throw up ironskins shapeshift into a Sword spider and have a mage cast IH on you, or use an item that gives it and lay into the enemy with like 20 rounds of 10 attacks per round that can hit anyone. Have someone cast str on you for an extra +2 damage per hit if you want.

  • Gnostic_GnomeGnostic_Gnome Member Posts: 4
    Ah nice, I never played a full druid (or picked cernd) in bg 2, now maybe I will give avenger a try.

    Still though this does seem to be broken in SoA, will it be effective in ToB? I worry about the druids mediocre thaco. Any advice for ToB?

    Sorry about the avenger derail guys.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • Gnostic_GnomeGnostic_Gnome Member Posts: 4
    As far as I understand there were two problems with Greater Werewolf shapeshift.
    1st It was buggy and didn't work as intended.
    2nd Even if it did work as intended, it would still be weaklish.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 924
    The only thing missing for druids are their legal multiclasses which are still missing, and were even promised in my SoA gamebook!

    Druid/Mage
    Druid/Ranger
    Fighter/Druid/Mage

    There was also Ranger/Mage but that doesn't count here!

    If we can get these, especially druid/Mage, we'll have a lethal character more dangerous than Cleric/Mages with access to Sequencer and Contingency druid spells... how much Greater Malison/Doom/Nature's Beauty spam = GG

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Yar, I would like to see the other druid multi/dual classes. Those are actually legit (even the druid/ranger, an official errata said that Neutral Good was an acceptable alignment for that class (well and you need a good nature deity who has both ranger and druid followers, but Mieliki fits the bill in FR, so that's legit as well)

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