Cavaliers not immune to cloudkill?

Carfax

I thought Cavaliers were supposed to be immune to Cloudkill? I had Neera cast cloudkill with my Cavalier PC and he died..

Moomintroll

I don't think that's the case, where did you read that? I believe they have some resistance to acid, but cloudkill also has save or die for low levels doesn't it?

bbear

Any character who has less than 4+1 Hit Dice is immediately slained in a cloudkill. Is your PC level 5 or lower?

Carfax

He's level 6, so he's not below level.

bbear

Carfax said:

He's level 6, so he's not below level.

I forgot to mention this, but any character btw level 5 and 6 is allowed a saving throw. If he fails the save at -4 against poison, then he is slain. In addition, any creature inside the cloud suffers 1d10 damage each round.

Spell Description:

http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/character/spells/wizard/wizardspell.asp?lvl_id=5&file_name=Cloudkill.htm&title=Cloudkill

valky

Hmm that's the BG2 description:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/showshot.php?/baldursgateii/spells/images/cloudkill.jpg

[don't want to hotlink GB files..so only the link]

So he just failed miserably with his saving throw with level 7 he should ignore the toxis damage though...

Carfax

Ah thanks for that, makes sense now. Still, given the fact that the Cavalier is supposed to have total poison immunity, he should still be unaffected by Cloudkill regardless of his level imo.

marfig

Carfax said:

Ah thanks for that, makes sense now. Still, given the fact that the Cavalier is supposed to have total poison immunity, he should still be unaffected by Cloudkill regardless of his level imo.

That's how I would have it, were I GMing a Pen & Paper. But you know computer games; dumb!

But Cloudkill save is against Poison. Take heed.

Mornmagor

Cloudkill is supposed to be more of a toxic gas than poison, and although any "chemical" could be considered poison for the human body in real life, in D&D i assume they mean a natural poison or manufactured one.

So Cavalier is not immune to Cloudkill, although it has save vs poison.

Oxford_Guy

Carfax said:

Ah thanks for that, makes sense now. Still, given the fact that the Cavalier is supposed to have total poison immunity, he should still be unaffected by Cloudkill regardless of his level imo.

I disagree, poison immunity is not meant to protect from spellls like Cloudkill

atcDave

Mornmagor said:

Cloudkill is supposed to be more of a toxic gas than poison, and although any "chemical" could be considered poison for the human body in real life, in D&D i assume they mean a natural poison or manufactured one.


So Cavalier is not immune to Cloudkill, although it has save vs poison.

Magic effects are often in their own category. In PNP all Paladins are supposed to be immune to disease also, but magical diseases are excluded.... which means pretty much any disease you encounter in the game will be excluded. Well it looks good on the character sheet....

I remember some forms of fire resistance too have differing levels of effectiveness against regular or magical fire.

So I would just chalk it up to saying Cloudkill is a magical effect and magical acid.

valky

Isn't the cavalier in pnp not just a prestige class for the paladin, specialized in mounted combat? [my dnd time is gone and so is my knowledge ^^]

And the immunities, some classes might have, are usually against attacks directed at them and doesn't or shouldn't effect AoE damage. Else some classes could be considered a god, aká the Paladin.
I really don't get the advancement from 2.5 to 3.x .. it's as if they would've been weak, nay they were given even more immunity shit and access to insane stuff with the introduction of HLA or Epic abilities. (or prestige classes)

jflieder

There is a difference between poison damage and the poison condition/effect. Cavaliers can still take "poison damage", but they cannot be "poisoned." A tricky distinction, I agree. I'll see if I can find a thread on another site to shed light on this...

valky

jflieder said:

There is a difference between poison damage and the poison condition/effect. Cavaliers can still take "poison damage", but they cannot be "poisoned." A tricky distinction, I agree. I'll see if I can find a thread on another site to shed light on this...

It's considered an unnatural attack, so their immunity got denied. Same applies to e.g. a mummies' disease, cause the latter is considered an unnatural attack, with the disease as an by-product of their rotting aura. (and a Paladin is usually immune to diseases)
Those immunities can and should only counter directed damage, like melfs arrow, poison(spell) or creatures, which are using an attack with poison/disease/whatever....

Might check the DM book, but that's just from my knowledge.

And Cloudkill is the same, what iron golems usually have; it's counted as "breath weapon" and so is your roll to counter it.
Yet, I dunno what happens if you would apply 'immunity from poison' ...

[edit: guess, that's what makes the cavalier pretty OP in BGEE/BG2 ^^ if it really does count as having absolute immunity against poison, even if AoE based]

atcDave

"Prestige class" is a 3E term, not 2E. Originally, in 1E, cavalier was published in Dragon magazine as a sub-class of Paladin. Then Unearthed Arcana was published (1985 or thereabout) and it flipped it around, so Cavalier was an all new class, and Paladin was a sub-class of it (so for a while, it was possible to have a non-paladin Cavalier, but not possible to have a non-cavalier paladin!). But then 2E came out and Paladins were back, but Cavaliers disappeared entirely. Until the Paladin Handbook was published that introduced Cavaliers as a "kit" for paladins. Over the course of a couple years, such handbooks were published for every class, and each contained about a dozen kits for the class. Most kits didn't do much, and were actually more about role playing issues than powers. But Cavalier was pretty conspicuous as a powerful Paladin kit (with VERY high ability requirements too. 15 in strength, dexterity AND Constitution; so it's not like there were ever going to be very many cavaliers).

When BG2 came out, kits were added to a computer game for the first time, but many of the kits were inspired by the 3E rule set that WotC had just published. And, as is often discussed here, these kits tend to be much more powerful than what was actually a part of the 2E rules. Cavalier might be the biggest exception, it is implemented almost exactly like the PNP version except that it has no extra ability requirements (and mounted combat was a big part of their shtick, but that doesn't really work for Infinity Engine), so any Paladin can be a cavalier if they wish.
I think the kits were mostly well conceived, and really add a lot. But they would cause chaos in my existing PNP game, (balance issues mainly) so I stick with the more official 2E kits.

CaptRory

In my Tutu Game, my Cavalier was immune to the ongoing damage effect of Cloudkill. And I don't ever recall him just keeling over from it.

jflieder

On post 31 of this thread, there is a little more detail.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/fighter-vs-mage-forum.83112/page-2

EDIT: Also post 35

DrEast

Cavaliers have an immunity to poison, and the 1d10 damage from cloudkill is poison damage. Regardless of other effects, Cavaliers SHOULD be immune to the ongoing damage, but I'm not sure this is the case. (It used to work in BGT and BG2, but testing in BG2 the other day with the ring of gaxx had my solo sorc. taking damage, so I'm not sure anymore).

jflieder

@DrEast : Cavaliers have immunity from the poison effect (that comes with the icon on your character's face on the right side of the screen). This includes becoming poisoned from spider attacks, ettercaps, and anything else that will cause you to become poisoned as a condition.

There are ways to receive poison damage that do not require the poison effect to be successfully placed on the target. Cloudkill is an example of this. Cavaliers do not inerently have immunity from this. The key difference here is the poisoned effect status (which if successfully put on a target will cause damage) versus poison damage itself (which can be inflicted in ways other than through the poison effect/status being put on a target).

valky

..and so does mirror image cause it does not protect you from getting damaged from a fireball, or at least that's the way it'd be. So why should a creature's based unnatural attack suddenly become resistible ?
Immunity is fine if I learned to counter it - in a RP way - but absolute immunity is a bit over the edge. A druid or ranger by nature is in harmony with its surrounding and can counter some poisons, given their knowledge...
A Paladin does not know neither of it, he does only know how to pray

[and so do I..praying to the gods of beer]

The cavalier is already OP enough, no need to mock about some minor stuff^^

ZanathKariashi

BG2 they're immune to poison (and anyone wearing items that grant poison immunity). I know because I frequently lobbed Cloudkills at enemies while my cavalier charged in, unharmed and murdered them while they were stuck in hit-reactions. And my bard is pulled similar tricks as well, when killing cowled wizards.

They're immune to magic poisons though, because Dragons and demons have magical poison attacks (green dragons, and several varieties of demons). They've been magically fortified by divine powers to combat ALL poisons.

Lateralus

Same thing happened to my cavalier. The way I see it, they should be immune to poison. Period. The spell is an evocation that evokes the poisonous gas. Therefor after the magical energy is expended, the result is a poisonous gas, not a magical poisonous gas. The magic is in creating it, but once it's created it's matter. The premise of the cavalier is that they are trained to kill dragons and demons who use equally if not deadlier poisons then the 5th level spell cloudkill. Green dragon breath is very similar to cloudkill.

If this was PnP I would give the DM an earful.

atcDave

Lateralus said:

Same thing happened to my cavalier. The way I see it, they should be immune to poison. Period. The spell is an evocation that evokes the poisonous gas. Therefor after the magical energy is expended, the result is a poisonous gas, not a magical poisonous gas. The magic is in creating it, but once it's created it's matter. The premise of the cavalier is that they are trained to kill dragons and demons who use equally if not deadlier poisons then the 5th level spell cloudkill. Green dragon breath is very similar to cloudkill.

If this was PnP I would give the DM an earful.

Giving a PNP DM an earful can be hazardous to your health! It rarely ends well for the player. You may do better arguing with your computer.

I think its completely reasonable to rule it a magical acid. Its essentially a toss up, and its not reasonable to expect every ruling to go in the players' favor.

Lateralus

atcDave said:

Lateralus said:

Same thing happened to my cavalier. The way I see it, they should be immune to poison. Period. The spell is an evocation that evokes the poisonous gas. Therefor after the magical energy is expended, the result is a poisonous gas, not a magical poisonous gas. The magic is in creating it, but once it's created it's matter. The premise of the cavalier is that they are trained to kill dragons and demons who use equally if not deadlier poisons then the 5th level spell cloudkill. Green dragon breath is very similar to cloudkill.

If this was PnP I would give the DM an earful.

Giving a PNP DM an earful can be hazardous to your health! It rarely ends well for the player. You may do better arguing with your computer.

I think its completely reasonable to rule it a magical acid. Its essentially a toss up, and its not reasonable to expect every ruling to go in the players' favor.

Nowhere in the spell description is the word "acid" mentioned.

"This spell generates a billowing cloud of ghastly, yellowish-green vapor that is so toxic as to instantly slay any creature with fewer than 4+1 Hit Dice and cause creatures with 4+1 to 6 Hit Dice to roll saving throws vs. poison with –4 penalty or be slain. Holding one’s breath has no effect on the lethality of the spell. Those above 6th level (or 6 Hit Dice) must leave the cloud immediately or suffer 1d10 points of poison damage each round while in the area of effect."

For all intents and purposes it's the same as green dragon breath. A toxic vapor that can be moved with a gust of wind spell.

I played PnP many a time and I DMed many a time. I HATED when players would rules lawyer, but this IS a poison. Either you're immune or you aren't, so as a DM I would have no choice but to side with the player. And then kill him later on. Within his precious rules, of course. ;P

atcDave

Lateralus said:

atcDave said:

Lateralus said:

Same thing happened to my cavalier. The way I see it, they should be immune to poison. Period. The spell is an evocation that evokes the poisonous gas. Therefor after the magical energy is expended, the result is a poisonous gas, not a magical poisonous gas. The magic is in creating it, but once it's created it's matter. The premise of the cavalier is that they are trained to kill dragons and demons who use equally if not deadlier poisons then the 5th level spell cloudkill. Green dragon breath is very similar to cloudkill.

If this was PnP I would give the DM an earful.

Giving a PNP DM an earful can be hazardous to your health! It rarely ends well for the player. You may do better arguing with your computer.

I think its completely reasonable to rule it a magical acid. Its essentially a toss up, and its not reasonable to expect every ruling to go in the players' favor.

Nowhere in the spell description is the word "acid" mentioned.

"This spell generates a billowing cloud of ghastly, yellowish-green vapor that is so toxic as to instantly slay any creature with fewer than 4+1 Hit Dice and cause creatures with 4+1 to 6 Hit Dice to roll saving throws vs. poison with –4 penalty or be slain. Holding one’s breath has no effect on the lethality of the spell. Those above 6th level (or 6 Hit Dice) must leave the cloud immediately or suffer 1d10 points of poison damage each round while in the area of effect."

For all intents and purposes it's the same as green dragon breath. A toxic vapor that can be moved with a gust of wind spell.

I played PnP many a time and I DMed many a time. I HATED when players would rules lawyer, but this IS a poison. Either you're immune or you aren't, so as a DM I would have no choice but to side with the player. And then kill him later on. Within his precious rules, of course. ;P

Poison, Acid whatever. If the effect is ruled to be magic, its magic. Just like fire comes in magical and non-magical varieties (and has different damage effects based on which it is) I have no problem with putting poison, acid or ham sandwiches in magical and non-magical varieties. And I see nothing in the spell description that states which it is.

But the bottom line is an attitude towards a DM I wouldn't tolerate. I also don't abide rules lawyers, when I DM its my judgement. And "giving a DM an earful" is grounds for ejection from the game. I've done that a couple times too in my 30 years of DMing.

Mathmick

There's a difference between the damage effect of the spell and the other effects. If your Cavalier is immune to "Poison", that doesn't mean they are necessarily immune to the instant-kill effect of Cloudkill.

It would be the same as expecting Finger of Death to not kill you because you have 100% resistance to the damage side-effect, or expecting Dragon's Breath to not knock you away when you are immune to fire. Resistance to damage effects should not change how the other effects work.

lunar

Mathmick said:

There's a difference between the damage effect of the spell and the other effects. If your Cavalier is immune to "Poison", that doesn't mean they are necessarily immune to the instant-kill effect of Cloudkill.

It would be the same as expecting Finger of Death to not kill you because you have 100% resistance to the damage side-effect, or expecting Dragon's Breath to not knock you away when you are immune to fire. Resistance to damage effects should not change how the other effects work.

I hear you. I suspected as much, that Cavalier is immune to poison but not to the instant death effect Cloudkill uses. But if we think too much, it is a poison effect that kills the victim in Cloudkill, not life snuffing stuff like a Finger of Death (otherwise it would be a necromantic spell, afterall.) There are very poisonous creatures in PnP, one bite and you must make a save vs poison or die instantly. I would rule that it is a poison effect, and thus Cavaliers should be immune to that bite. Same goes for the Cloudkill, it is the poison that instantly kills the victim, logicaly. However, in game mechanics, there is no instant-poison death effect. There is only instant death effect and Cloudkill uses it. And I suspect that Death ward spell could erronously protect against Cloudkill's death effect, which makes no sense.

What can be a compromise, instead of insta-kill of Cloudkill, is to inflict massive poison damage to a target who fails his saving throw, something like 9999 poison damage. Which would kill any regular target instantly, but those immune to poisons won't be damaged.

Luigirules

Cavaliers in Baldur's Gate are immune to being poisoned, not poison damage.

Or acid. Acid and poison are not the same thing.

ScytheKnight

Wait.. wait...

Was this a failed werebears summon?

lunar

Luigirules said:

Cavaliers in Baldur's Gate are immune to being poisoned, not poison damage.

Or acid. Acid and poison are not the same thing.

I didn't know that. But others said Cavaliers were immune to damage from Cloudkill in higher levels? Umm, maybe it depends on the installation and mods. Then a special coding is needed to exclude Cavaliers and any creature under the effect of 'protection from poison' (item or scroll) to be immune to Cloudkill's death effect. I am not sure if it is possible to code, though. That may be the logical thing IMHO.

Lateralus

Mathmick said:

There's a difference between the damage effect of the spell and the other effects. If your Cavalier is immune to "Poison", that doesn't mean they are necessarily immune to the instant-kill effect of Cloudkill.

It would be the same as expecting Finger of Death to not kill you because you have 100% resistance to the damage side-effect, or expecting Dragon's Breath to not knock you away when you are immune to fire. Resistance to damage effects should not change how the other effects work.

It's not the same, for several reasons.

1. It's an evocation, not necromancy. Which is to say that it creates an element, and that element causes the effect. That element is a poison gas, and the effect is instant or lingering death. Immunity to the element, means immunity to the effect of said element.

2. There aren't any stipulations in the ability description for poison immunity for the cavalier kit. It's spiders, darts of wounding, spells, ettercaps, breath weapons, etc.. Like a scroll of poison immunity.

3. The creatures poison are magical creatures, there's nothing "natural" about dragon breath or a ettercap bite. Being immune to a demon and dragons poison is the same as being immune to a poison from a magical energy.

4. A lot of poisons have an onset damage, and then a lingering damage. Cloudkill is not ony described as a poison, it acts as a poison. The onset is instant death (not unlike a demons poison) and the lingering effect is damage.