What exactly is a "Save" in the D&D world?

Daelric

So say a character saves vs a spell in D&D, why would a spell have a chance to just fizzle against a certain character? Or is it more realistically maybe a chance the character "dodges" the spell instead? I guess I'm trying to link it to what a save would be in reality, which probably isn't the best idea anyway...

lDanielHolm

It is intentionally left vague. Resisting the spell, for instance, is just as likely as dodging it.

atcDave

Dodging/evading is a good example. Or maybe holding your breath at the right instant, seeing some flaw in an illusion, or finding the will power to resist a magical command. You get better at all these things as you gain experience (levels). In PNP you get appropriate bonuses based on scores too; like from dexterity to avoid an explosion, wisdom to avoid a charm, etc.
I understand the score based bonuses were not implemented in BG. Bummer.

marfig

As @IDanielHolm says. From each spell description you can come up with one or more ideas of how one could save against it. It's just that. When we were doing Pen & Paper one of the GMs actually liked to describe (or let players describe) a save.

Daelric

That's the kinda stuff I've always imagined... Also HPs, I've always imagined gaining hit points wasn't exactly how much damage you take rather it was how easily you could be wounded. A higher level, more experienced warrior knows how to brace or deflect an incoming blow better than a lower level one.

But that's not what Constitution is though... its how hardy a character is.

Ulfgar_Torunn

In 3rd edition the mysterious saving throws are explained as various means of avoiding a spell's effects, either through dodging, having ample physical resistance, or by using willpower to resist the caster's beguiling magics. Sometimes it represents the intervention of higher powers in protecting the target (as with the Paladin's improved saving throws). In 2nd edition the saves are intentionally left unexplained so that the players are free to imagine the character's interaction with the magic.

I'm fine with the saving throws not having clear descriptions but I wish the ability scores modified them so that what they represent was more clear, and more variation was present among similarly classed characters.

BelgarathMTH

@Daelric, Yeah, the "saving throw" is meant to be a numerically-based factor of almost anything you could imagine. You are more powerful than the caster as Maurice>Endora>Samantha, or you are too fast like the Flash, you are able to cast invisible shielding like Susan Storm, you can throw up metallic rocks like Magneto, you have fast-healing like Wolverine, you are a partially kryptonite-impaired Superman, whatever your pleasure.

The lower your "saving throws", the greater a "Super" you are. Theoretically, if your saves were in the negatives, you would be effectively invulnerable against anything but straight physical damage, as in, you would be almost godlike, or at least, a "Flying Brick" with nothing that could hurt you but a greater "Flying Brick."

See this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlyingBrick

and this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperpowerLottery

or this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TropeCo/FlyingBrick

atcDave

Well except a 1 is always a failure, so no matter what there is always SOME chance of failure.

Hit Points are a similar abstraction. I always figure you aren't really injured until you get down to the last couple. Daelric above put it very well.

ajwz

2nd edition saves make virtually no sense in the way they are segregeted.

OurQuestIsVain

I used to read a lot of Conan novels when I was a kid and was always impressed by Conan's ability to simply shrug off spells from evil mages through sheer force of will. I always imagined this while playing d&d...a mage casts a spell and my character refuses to let it affect him.

lunar

I like the way saving throws are left vague and to the imagination of the player. A mage has a good save vs spells and he can resist a fireball or cone of cold more easily. Not because he is agile and nimble and hops around dodging everything, he simply has a magical aura that deflects the burnt and worst of the spells often. The more magical power he has, the more mage levels he posess, his aura is more powerful, his expertise in spell effects so vast, he can counter more spells easily.

While clerics have excellent save vs death. Not because they all are toughest bunch , but because they have a connection to positive energies, since they draw on god's power to heal, those energies shield and toughen their bodies and protects from various harmful death, disease and poison related stuff. Or you can say that their gods protect their servants from horrible instantenous deaths like this. That's how I think about it.

Imagine a Disintegrate spell is cast on a character. He must make a save vs spells or his whole body is ripped assunder and turned into dust.

An experienced fighter has amazing combat reflexes and weaşon skill. He sees the ray of disintegration coming, and deflects it with a sword strike. He is so quick and skilled that even his sword is not affected, the deathly ray fizzles and dissipates. He has made a save vs spells.

A master thief is experienced to avoid traps and making quick escapes. He jumps back with an amazing backflip, narrowly avoding the ray, rolls on the ground and readifies a throwing dagger as he gets back on his feet. He has made a save vs spells.

A faithful cleric or paladin sees the deadly spell, raises his shield or two handed sword and screams his god's name. And with a bright flash the spell fizzles away, the god has rewarded the examplar faith of his disciple, protecting him from certain death. The cleric has made a save vs spells.

An arch-mage immediately recognises the spell as it is, knows intricate patterns that shape its magical energies. He quickly draws a magical sigil on the air that counters the magical energy and unravels it. He was fast and skilled enough and the ray fizzles away as it reaches the mage. The mage has made a save vs spells.

The spell hits a raging barbarian right on the chest. He barely notices it, and the spell fails to rip his body apart. He is just THAT tough.

A commoner barely knows what is happening. He sees a green flash of light heading towards him and thinks 'ooh, pretty!' And in the blink of an eye all that remains from him is a rancid pile of dust, blowing away in the wind.

ZanathKariashi

It depends on the context of the spell...if you save vs an offensive attack spell, you dodged some or all of the effect. If you saved vs a death effect, poison or the like or enchantment, you had the physical/mental fortitude to shake it off.

Sily

As some posters have said above, the AD&D rules make no sense in the context.

3.5e however is pretty obvious, as @ZanathKariashi above said.

Save vs Fireball/Lightning bolt - You dodge half of the effect (or all if you have uncanny dodge? or you manage to cover yourself, duh?)

Save vs any mind affecting spell, ala hold person or phantasmal killer? You resist it, mental fortitude, force of will.

Save vs spell which forces you to roll constitution? See above, but just physical toughness instead.


PS. I heavily disagree with what @lunar above wrote. Over epic defenses and all that.

atcDave

Sily it is what it is. We were attempting to explain and rationalize the rules. If you don't like it, find another game. And that's just it, this is a game. It's for entertainment. It's not worth getting so frustrated over.

Sily

@atcDave

What? Please come again? At what point did I-.. by the gods! I give up.
I were merely agreeing with a few posters, and bluntly saying that the AD&D rules make no sense in regards to saves. At least I don't believe they are explained to any degree, but are left to the.. players/GM?

Daelric

Lol @atcDave @Sily
That outta the blue blast at Sily was totally uncalled for!

That's some chaotic neutral shit right there lol

atcDave

Sorry if I misread the mood of it. It looked like a slam to me, if I was mistaken then I am very sorry.

PlasticGolem

ajwz said:

2nd edition saves make virtually no sense in the way they are segregeted.

As with most things that don't seem to make sense, there is a historical reason for why things are the way they are.

Original Dungeons & Dragons evolved from a fantasy supplement to the Chainmail wargame rules. The list of saving throws were basically an enumeration of all of the perils you could face in the game that offered a chance to avoid or minimize the effect. Perils with the same chance of saving were grouped together in order to keep the matrix small enough, not because they were necessarily logically related.

As D&D evolved into a more free-form role playing game, other situations arose, and the existing saving throw categories were "borrowed" for different purposes. For example, save versus wands was often used to determine if the character dodged a missile from a trap, on the logic that save versus wands represented the chance of dodging the projectile from a magic wand. (Which it sometimes did and sometimes didn't). These carried through into B/X D&D, BECMI D&D and AD&D, which in turn carried over to 2nd Edition AD&D, which was meant to be mostly compatible with 1st edition. Third edition threw all of that away, along with many other elements of D&D that the designers decided were confusing, dated or awkward, and replaced with a more principles-based system of saves.

ZanathKariashi

Actually...2nd editon and 3rd editon are pretty much the same save-wise (2nd has more categories, but the overall effect is the same). You are actually supposed to be getting a dex bonus to save vs certain spells that in 3rd would be termed a reflexive save (applies to all the same spells it does in 3rd), while wisdom gives you the equivalent of a will save (again, applies to all the same spells as in 3rd). Con however only effects saves vs poisons and only at very high amounts (19+).

Note that none of these are implemented. They're actually in the game files, they simply aren't used.

3rd merely condensed the categories into 3 (Relexive, fortitude, or will), based on which type of save made the most sense.

Darkovan

3rd is still broken down into additional categories from there though..
Reflex save vs Traps and Spells being completely different categories are 2 that come to mind.
The uncanny dodge feats (every 2 barbarian levels or every 3 rogue levels) provided additional reflex saves vs traps that required a reflex roll.
The skill spell craft would confer a +1 save vs spells for every 5 points in Spell craft as a passive bonus.